S5E1: Fat Dish: Last, First Fat Dish

Season 5, Episode 1:

Fat Dish: First, Last Fat Dish

Released on July 6th, 2022. For complete episode info, visit this page!

SB: Yeah. We should just do it! Let's just do it. We're doing it. 

CP: We're doing it.

SB: Last first episode. 

CP: Lemme yawn. (Yawns) 

SB: No. Unacceptable. I dare you to not yawn before every episode we record–

CP: –Impossible. (Sings) Impossible things are happening every day…(Both laugh)

SB: Amazing. That’ll make it. Is that what we're gonna put at the beginning, please?

CP: No, you're not recording yet. Are you? Oh, you are. (Both laugh)

SB: Got ‘em!

CP: Hold on, lemme do one more yawn.

[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]

CP: Welcome to Matter of Fat, a body-positive podcast with Midwest sensibilities. Hi, I’m Cat Polivoda, a local fat feminist and shop owner who is pro-abortion. I'm joined by my co-host and producer, Saraya Boghani. 

SB: Hi, I'm Saraya. I'm a fat, multiracial, Minneopolitan millennial who is just doing their dang best, you know?

CP: On matter of fat, we're here to talk about the cultural politics of fat liberation with a Midwest perspective.

SB: And we're back with our first Fat Dish episode of season five!

CP: Oh, that's right! We're here! Our Fat Dish episodes are usually interspersed between interview episodes and are really just full of us dishing; chatting about our podcast, our lives, what we've been watching, and of course, diving into fat topics and issues that we want to discuss.

SB: Mm-hmm. We hope you've enjoyed our Matter of Fat Considers series that kicked off our season, and now it's just nice to be back into the thick of it, our normal groove. 

CP: Uh, yeah. And wow, do we have a lot to Catch up on.

[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]

CP: Uh, first up, let’s dish about Matter of Fat!

SB: Let’s do it! Okay, okay so, I mentioned it a little bit ago, but like we had a silly goofy project in Matter of Fat Considers! 

CP: We really did. What a like, weird and fun start to the season. (Laughs)

SB: And also like, full transparency, we had recorded those like, before. Yeah. But you know, I think it was a good way to bring some of that same evergreen energy about Criminal Minds into the next season. (Both laugh) The continuity is strong, we kicked it off. 

CP: I'm quite curious; like, who watched them, who didn't–and like, we're not mad if you didn't like–did I say watch? TV on the brain.

SB: You did, I was curious. Do you think like we can, we confused enough people enough into watching the shows that we talked about?

CP: That is actually not what I seen. Although, who did I talk to? Oh, my coworker. Alejandra, who had like, talked about the possibility of like getting into Jane the Virgin and I was like, “Mmhmm, you gotta listen to our episode, maybe you'll be into it that.” So perhaps we will move some minds and create fans of these shows that have been out for several years that no one needs to be hyping, but here we are. 

SB: Real important influencing happening on this podcast. I, I wanna know, and I think the people wanna know, did you, did you watch Gossip Girl?

CP: I regret to inform you that I have not watched Gossip Girl. We're not to the personal dish part yet, but we will get there soon, and I've just had a little less free time lately. So, my media consumption generally has just been like, way down. 

SB: Didn't make the cut. Didn't make the cut. Like 911, like SWAT.

CP: It's still on the list. OK, I–Saraya, we gotta tell people. So I had teased the final Matter of FAt Considers was the show Frasier, which I have watched as I've fallen asleep for like the last five years, probably almost six years now. And I made a joke about like, well, everyone knows what's next or whatever, you know–

SB: –On Instagram–

CP: –Yes, like what TV show do you associate me with? And Saraya Boghani dragged me and was like, “SWAT, 911, SVU, FBI, Blindspotting,” like all of the, every single stupid copaganda show–

SB: –Friends!--

CP: –oh God, Friends; the not great shows that I continue to watch. Um, but no, put some respect on my name. 

Both: Frasier. (Both laugh)

SB: I cannot believe you just said that. And it's recorded in perpetuity. 

CP: I do maintain that–

SB: –I think we should end the season. I think that's all we needed.

CP: Mic drop. (Both continue laughing) I maintain Frasier is some good comedy. But also like, as I think we probably discussed in those Matter of Fat Considers episodes, like I'm, I don't think I have the most–I like what I like, and I don't think I like, have a very elevated sense of like what–I don't know what I'm trying to say here. You know what I mean?

SB: I do not–amen. I think we leave it, I like what I like. I don't–I feel like for a long time in my life, I was trying to find a certain like elevation of what I liked. And yeah, that led me into some interesting things, and some of my favorite things certainly, but I'm at that point in my life where it's like, “I don't know, I like what I like.” 

I don't need it to be high brow. I don't need to learn something every time I watch something. Um, most of my consumption is escapist. (Both laugh) So at this point, at this reality that we live in, so, yeah.

CP: I appreciate that perspective, and I'm gonna–yes, let's leave it at that. We like what we like, and we shared some of those silly, goofy shows with y'all in that little series we did to start off the season.

SB: We hope you enjoyed it. And if you didn't, we're back to regularly scheduled programming, so.

CP: Yeah, the rest of the season will be more of what you've come to expect from us. 

SB: Yeah, yeah. Okay. What else is on the Matter of Fat dish radar? 

CP: Well, we took a big ol’ break. (Saraya laughs) Right? I mean, we took a long break and we really were like, on a break. We did not do work for so many months. It was awesome. 

SB: We hung out. 

CP: Yeah, we did! 

SB: That counts, right?

CP: We what?

SB: We hung out? That counts as working on the podcast a little bit?

CP: A lot. I almost gave you COVID once when we hung out. 

SB: You–so, can we tell the full story, you think? 

CP: I mean, we can. It's like, funny now cuz you didn't get COVID. 

SB: It’s not too soon at this point? Yeah, I didn't get COVID. Actually–I mean, I'm not aware of having gotten COVID yet at this point, which is wild. 

CP: But in the event that we are referencing, uh, we spent– 

SB: It was New Year's Eve-eve, which has become a tradition for us to spend time together. So Cat came over to my house and I made some delicious food and we were laughing and drinking champagne, and, and it was great! It was just so fun. ‘Cuz at that point I still wasn't, like, hanging out with people regularly. 

CP: No, it felt so fun and festive and like, to keep our little New Year's Eve-eve tradition alive. We even did a little Facebook live where we unpacked one of my Universal Yums holiday boxes together. Just picture us sitting side by side together for hours. 

SB: Yeah! Gabbing, laughing, laughing in each other's faces! 

CP: Spit was flying! 

SB: Ok, I don’t recall any spit flying–

CP: –But in the way, like, when you eat, you know what I mean? It's not like we were like, you know, on separate areas of the–we were like next to each other.

SB: We were sitting next to each other, yeah. We were chatting, we were having the best time. And then Cat–I mean, both of us at that time had been pretty considerate to be like, getting regularly tested, but you especially because of work and being in close proximity to others. 

CP: And I had been, I went to Wisconsin for –well, Iowa and then Wisconsin, saw the fam in different places the weekend before. And I had got a test before I left, of course, and then when I got home, I felt fine, but I was like, “Well, that's what you do, right?” Like after you travel or whatever, you get a test. And I wasn't, um, I had no, I was sure that it would not be positive. Uh, it was truly just like, “Oh yeah, that's what you're supposed to do, right?” Okay. 

Oh no, no, no. So after our meal, after we spent hours– 

SB: –We felt really solid. I didn't even ask what the results were.

CP: No, I didn't, I wasn't worried. 

SB: And then that little iPhone went ding ding ding ding ding, we got a winner. 

CP: No, you went out to let Bogie out. And I was like, “Oh, I guess I'll just look at my email.” (Laughs) Whoops.

SB: Oh no. 

CP: And then Saraya comes back in from letting the dog out and I'm like,  “Panic, I don't know what to do.”

SB: Bless, bless your heart. You put your mask on and you say “Open the windows,” in December, after spending hours together. I was like, “Babe, that, yeah, it doesn't matter.” 

CP: So this whole experience, yeah, was a reminder to me that I have no freaking clue how any of this stuff works. Like I felt like I had spent so much time watching things, reading things, trying to understand, like, how to protect myself, how to protect others. And at the end of the day, like I just, I clearly know nothing, you know what I mean?

Like I, I don't think I gave COVID to anyone, and if–and I should’ve given it to a lot of people. I still don't have, don't have any idea where I got COVID. Like it must have been on my like, Wisconsin-Iowa travels, but none of my family members had COVID. So like, was it at the gas station when I was getting a soda with my mask on for two minutes? Like, how did this even happen? I don't know. 

But you, and I think–I really, I spent a lot of time, while I was like in a brain fog quarantining, trying to like figure it out. And I just had to come to terms with the fact that like, I'm not gonna totally know, and that just has to be okay because it is just, it is, it is what it was, you know?

SB: Yeah. There's so many realities of what COVID means to every person at this point, and I, I think like, us telling us the story is not to make light of the very real and harmful impact it has had on everyone I would say, at this point. Um, and also, it was almost a relief for me when, when like, I was with you, because it had been so long where it's like, just not wanting to get it and trying to do everything possible.

And then it's like, oh, you might have it. And it's like, well, it's not a relief to have it. But just to realize like, oh, instead of fighting against not getting it for so long, it's like, well now I can just try and react to this.

CP: Yeah. It's a weird place to be, but it's–yeah.

SB: It's not good. I don't wanna say like a relief as in like, “Oh, everything's fine.” It wasn't fine. Luckily I didn't get it, um, but it's just such a weird, weird situation. And so that's all to say that , we are still deep in this pandemic, um, many years going on. I think that's one of the things when I listen back to our previous episodes, like how naive we were, and hopeful.

CP: Yeah. Oh my gosh, I recently was–you know I'm always trying to listen to find business podcasts I like, and I hate so many of them. And I was really, I was deep back in, like on someone's feed, you know? And it was, I didn't realize like when, it was dated, but I'm listening to it, and this person is just like, “Oh, you know, COVID, it's just like the flu. It's just blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.” And I was like, oh my God, what is this?! And then I look and it was like some, some March 2020 stuff. And I was thinking like, “Oh man, this is where people were at that time,” you know?

But I think for us, it is just like weird and hard to listen to–you know, the beginning of season three, when we like, just like learned how to record remotely 'cuz we didn't feel comfortable going to the station anymore. And to think that like, oh, we're like, starting season five now and it's still–it's not the same, but there are still so many unresolved worries and issues because of this global pandemic that we're still working through, you know? 

SB: Absolutely. And like, this is–we're setting an interesting tone for this episode of this season right now. Even my intro was like, “I’m just tryna do my best.” But I think, that is just like, so much of what we're contending with at every point, and to not talk about it feels disingenuous, so. 

CP: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, that happened.

SB: Which like–that did happen. And also like, again, I'm gonna come back to this tone concept, 'cuz this is our final season, which, weird! And, good. And, interesting in the most Midwestern sense, I guess. 

CP: Well, do we wanna like, talk about why we've decided this is our last season? 

SB: Keep ‘em guessing. (Cat laughs) No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, we should probably talk. 

CP: I mean, okay, like if we're dishing about the pod–

SB: –We could come up with different stories every, every episode, so they truly don’t know. It’s like Ziwe, Ziwe won’t tell anybody I won't tell anybody how old she is. She always just says “I'm a baby, goo goo ga ga.” No, let's talk about it. We should talk about it. 

CP: Yeah. So this is our final season, um, and it feels good to be able to like, set that intention and name that as we go into the season instead of an afterthought of like, “Oh yeah, well we just don't wanna do this again next,” you know. Like I'm happy that we can spend this season really reflecting on and celebrating the things we've been able to do together and the people we've been able to talk to. Um, so that was important to me to be able to like, know going into the season which one would be our last. 

SB: It's hard, because when I think about, like, the podcasts that have really followed me along my life, they just keep going on forever and ever. That being said, like, this project has been so different from any of the podcasts that I regularly listen to. It's been a hobby, like a passion project in an era where I feel like that doesn't exist for a lot of people. Um, and it's so fun to think about, yeah, like closing the chapter. Five seasons is no small feat, and wanting to do it well, wanting to do it while we're having fun and like still celebrating friendship and fat liberation and doing right by it as best as we can just feels really gratifying.

CP: Yes. And, and ending things while they're still fun. 

SB: Mhmm. I don't know that I was worried about that, that happening, but it's nice to have control over it. 

CP: No, that's something I think about. It's like, well, it's–I've, I'm sure I've told you this before, Saraya, I’ve probably talked about it on the podcast before: Jane Crenz, the supervisor at one of my first jobs, um, we were working with kids. And she would always say like, “When you do a game, when you're playing games and you're doing something, like, make sure you stop while it's still a good time. Um, and then like everyone stays happy and is excited for like, the opportunity to do something like that in the future.” You know?

Which like, I think as an adult in a work life, that speaks to like, not being burnt out on things like, you know? Like, let's end this while it still feels so good, and keep those like memories and that, um, I dunno, the space we created like so lovely and beautiful and not–like, I never want this to feel like a burden. Or like, um, it's like, like the ship has sailed, or like we have, you know, like we're over it while we're still in it.

SB: Yeah. I guess like, in my work–so I'm a coach, or I was a coach, little teaser right there for ya, little Easter egg–um, no, but part of it is like, okay. If you’re bored, then the person you're coaching is probably feeling bored. Or if you hear them being, you know, resistant or aloof or whatever, then that is probably accurate. And so that, I think that's true, because it's not just us Cat. It's, you know, you, our listener, and the community that's a part of this too. 

So we want it to feel good and comforting and like friendship, which is the bedrock of this. Oh my God. I'm gonna get so sappy if you keep letting me talk, so.

CP: I know. I just wanna add one thing, which is like we–and I hope this is appropriate to share and feel free to delete this if you don't think this is like stuff that we should share, um, outward-facing–but we've been, this has been a topic of conversation for several seasons, for several years. Like, when will this project come to an end? Um, and we had, have had lots of really honest conversations. But there was one time we were talking about how like, our friendship is so important to us and like, we, we talked about like, “Well, at some point when the podcast ends, like we as friends should still just like keep a weekly time where we meet up or we FaceTime, or we see each other.” Because, you know, this project has afforded us the ability to prioritize, you know, once or twice or three times a week interaction with each other around Matter of Fat work.

And for me, It was really when we had that “Aha!” of like, “Oh, we can just like put each other on the calendar even if we're not doing a podcast. Like we can just like, talk each other every week or like, you know, have some kind of like on the calendar time together outside of this project.” That made me think, okay, whenever this comes to an end, like I'll be ready cuz I know I still have you.

SB: Yeah! Aw, okay. To add on to that, e got dinner last night, and it was magical, but I had the realization that our friendship is just so much deeper because of this project. Like, having to make creative decisions, having to hear the other person's perspective and come to a compromise or, um, just, I think going into every, every situation wanting to build the other person up has just leveled up our friendship in a way that, you know, you don't get if you don't work on projects with others. Or like, you don't have that consistent, shared goal with another person. And so, I don't know. It's special, this whole thing is special, and so I'm really excited that we get to do right by closing it out in a special way this season. 

CP: Yeah, I wholeheartedly agree. 

SB: Well, okay, we've done enough teasing. What about this personal dish? Cat? What, what ha–why can't you watch Gossip Girl, Cat?

CP: Well, okay. Yeah, so, I think the biggest development in my life–I mean, think about it, we haven't like, dished like this since November of 2021? 

SB: What? 

CP: Mhmm, yeah. I fell in love, y’all!

SB: Oh!

CP: Um, it was a big deal and it's just the best thing ever! And, yeah. I, um, uh, I, maybe I talked about this in the pod, I think I did. I basically took 2021 off of dating, because dating during a pandemic felt like a lot, and I just was in this cycle in 2020 of like being lonely, getting on dating apps, being like, “This is not doable, it's a freaking pandemic,” and then getting off the dating apps and being lonely again and thinking, “Oh, Cat, if you just like, would’ve stayed on these apps six weeks ago, you know, put the work in then–” And I was really, like, beating myself up a lot about it. And it was like, okay, this is not a healthy cycle. So I decided in 2021 to just not date. 

And then part of that was the thought of like, okay, well in 2022, you know, at the beginning of 2021, I'm thinking in 2022 the pandemic will be so much more manageable. Eyeroll. Yeah, but  that, so that was what I set out for myself. But then, um, a couple things happened, and one of them, as we mentioned, I got COVID. And so I felt like, “Oh, I'm probably the most immune protected I'll be for a while.” Um, and that, among a couple other things made me think like, “Okay, I really am gonna get myself back out there.”

And I read a book, um, I guess I'm jumping ahead to media recs, but I read this book called How to Not Die Alone. It was a very clickbaity title, but–and a very like marriage-and-baby track kind of focus, which is not, was not my intended focus. Um, but I found the book really helpful.

Anyway, I got in the right headspace, did my thing, got on the dating apps–and this is like very early January–and it was fine, and I was having a fine time. I do the thing, my main dating–well, people often ask, like, what are you dating app recommendations? Um, my main recommendation is to pay for Tinder gold, so you can be swiping in people who've already swiped on you. It is great for your confidence and a, a strategic plan. Uh, you know, it's like just strategy or wasting less time. 

So I was doing that, I was having a fine time, but like the, had this realization of, “Well, this isn’t like, as fun as I wanted to be,” you know, like, what would be fun? And just like, being really honest with myself, well like, it'd be fun to go on a date with someone that I like. Like who do I have a crush on, you know? 

Yeah, and so then, long story short, I just like slid in the DMs of someone who I had had a crush on for quite a while in a very slow burn way. Um, yeah. And they said, “Yeah, I'd like to go on a date with you.” And so we went for a walk around Lake Nokomis on the coldest day. I mean like, I came outside for the date, and then I had to like, go back inside to put another layer of pants on, cold. Like it was a very cold day. 

SB: What a Midwestern moment. What a love story. 

CP: Like sorry, gonna be late, need to put another layer on. Like, it was so cold.

SB: You know it's real when someone wants to deal with the coldest date in the Minnesota winter for you.

CP: Yeah, and actually I–when we like giggled about this, reflect on it, Neno is like, “Yeah, my legs were like, I couldn't feel my legs that day after we–” 

SB: –”But my heart was so warm and full.” 

CP: Right, yeah. So we did that. And then, I don't know, like the rest is history, y'all. It's been like five, six months-ish. And I mean, it feels like anything I say is very cliche, but like, my heart has been opened in ways I never knew it could be, and I've never been this happy. It was like, all so honest, and like, actually, like, that's where I'm at. This is just like, the best relationship I've ever been in. 

Um, yeah. And so my boyfriend's name is Neno and their pronouns are they/them, and I just love them so much, and they're the best partner. And also as we record this, they've just been on vaCation for several, like almost two weeks, and I just like miss them a lot. So maybe you're getting a little more sap than normal, but–

SB: –I don’t think so, I can attest that this is, this is accurate.

CP: Consistent level of gushing.

SB: And she actually isn't that much, for someone to be head over heels in love, and like, someone who is so besotted with like, romance novels, I think this is an appropriate amount of love-sharing.

CP: I just, like, I, the feeling–I don't know. I've like, never felt like this before, it’s so great. And I just, I wanna just like be in this, you know, and like live my little love story. And actually, you know–(Saraya giggles) What? Why you giggling?

SB: Just like Kourtney Kardashian! (Cat laughs) Live your fairytale, Cat.

CP: Oh my God. I promise you, Neno and I are not making out in public like Kourtney and Travis are, don't worry. Like that is no, that is not the level of–

SB: –Yes!--(Both laugh)

CP: We’re not sitting at each other's laps in public, no!  

SB: Just cuz it's been cold. I guess it's summer now. 

CP: It's summer now. We, no, we're too sweaty for that. We're not doing that. 

SB: That’s fair, that's fair. 

CP: But also, what's really what is one of the best pieces of all of this: you know I've wanted, like, fat power couple status for a long time? And like, achieved. Achieved. We are the hottest fat couple. Oh, it's just like, yeah, that is just an extra bonus to this incredible relationship.

SB: You, you should tell the people about your tweet, that you really loved a few months back about the community you've built around yourself. 

CP: Oh yeah. I mean, this has been, you know, in the making for so long. But I'm reminded often how, for some fat people, like there's, you're out there on your own. There's not a lot of other fat people in your family or in your friend group or in your workplace or in your relationships, you know? And the life I have is just so nearly exclusively fat. Like I create this podcast with like, a fat bestie–you, Saraya.

SB: Oh! Who, me?!

CP: You! I own a shop where I interact almost exclusively with fat customers and have only fat staff. I am dating another fat person. I have so many fat close friends. And even in my family, while  I don't think they're the most fat liberation-minded, there are fat people in my family and that feels lucky too. Um, I just like, have fat people around me all the time and it is the absolute best life. And that's that. 

SB: What else is contributing to your quality of life, would you say? 

CP: Oh, I feel like this is leading. (Both laugh)

SB: What?! No, a segue? By Saraya?

CP: So, last year, Saraya paved the way with therapy and mediCation, and this year I have followed suit. Let me tell you, Lexapro makes life easier. Oof. I, um, made the decision to get on some anti-anxiety meds earlier in the year. It just felt like it had become kind of an imperative. Like, for me, what was so interesting is that I think I experience anxiety like not, not exclusively, but almost completely like in my body. Like, tight chest, lump in my throat, fast-beating heart, tingly arms, like all these things that I had worried, like, were heart issues, they're not. I've had so many EKGs. 

And this has been happening since college actually, but  in my mind, never felt so overwhelming. Something about the pandemic and this year–and also, actually, my doctor reminded me, you know, anxiety for some folks is heightened after they have COVID. So while I had a pretty easy time with COVID like, um, I had–my COVID symptoms were literally 14 days of a bad headache and that was it basically. But knowing that like, long COVID can strike in lots of weird ways, and I think maybe this is part of it for me. Anyway, I hit a bit of a breaking point this spring where I was I like, “My body can't function like this, like I need something else. I need something to help this.” 

Um, and so I started going to therapy, which has been really good, and yeah, I started meds. And just like, it was–because my anxiety is such a physical thing, like the meds started working in like three days. I was like, “Oh, this is what it's like to not feel tightness in my chest? What?” Like, it was just the most incredible thing. 

Um, and you know, things have kind of ebbed and flowed since then. And perhaps like, I'll change my dosage or this or that, but like long story short, gosh, like. If you, if anyone needed to be an advoCate of meds, let me be also join the bandwagon. Like it has just been really, really nice. So, that's been absolutely contributing to my quality of life. 

SB: Aw! I'm so, I'm so glad. Cuz I feel like I have been a proponent of mental health support, and I took antidepressants in college, but that was before my brain chemistry had really solidified, and so I think they impacted me in a different way. But like, I feel like I would’ve been late to the party. Like people, many of my close friends have been going to therapists or psychiatrists and like, figuring this out for a long time. And I feel like, you know, a lot of my anxiety was really getting in the way of like, trying to figure it out in the first place, and just feeling overwhelmed. So I'm just like, so glad that, one, I did it, 'cuz it's helping me a whole lot too; and then two, just to know that, like, you know, us talking candidly about it ould it put you in a position to wanna figure it out as well.

CP: Yeah. I so appreciate that. Yeah, I mean, similarly, like a lot of people around me are on meds and/or in therapy, but I just really appreciated, last year, you sharing so openly about your experiences with that on our podcast–and you know, with me in a friendship capacity. Yeah, it absolutely helped me. 

SB: Yeah, it’s a good thing. I just remember being shook to my core when I was like, describing my life and my–and I know you know this–but like my therapist is like, “That sounds really hard.” (Laughs) Gutted, like, excuse me?! I'm just telling you my day! (Both laugh) Like, what do you mean, that sounds hard? She's like, “Well, does it, does it all have to be like that, you think?” It’s just like, what the hell?! Like, what do you mean? There’s another way to live life? Like what? 

CP: Yeah, yeah. 

SB: It shattered me! And I think that's what's so good about therapy or even just like, I don't know. You do coaching with Shannon. It's just so helpful to have other people provide other perspectives for you to just like consider. Consider the opposite narrative, consider different ways of living, especially if they help you exist in this hellscape that we live in.

CP: And I think something so unique about a therapy or coaching relationship–while they're different, different relationships–um, one thing that they do have in common is that like, this person is there for you. And I think like, in a way that's different than a friendship capacity. You know like, with friends, of course we can lean on each other, but to have like, oh, for an hour, like we're just here to talk about my shit with this person that I am paying to do so is incredible, and something that I find just really, really valuable.  

SB: A little more objective, too, which is nice. But, okay, okay, okay. 

CP: I'm trying to think what else. Cake life has been, I don't, know a lot; like we closed, we closed again and we opened again. I hired people last fall and I think I probably spoke about that. My team is just so awesome, and also business just continues to be a real struggle. I'm continuing to like come to grips with, um, you know, my plans having to change and change again and modify. 

And I think a lot of that for me culminated around my birthday. I turned 35 in April, and yeah, just thinking about like, okay. In my head, I had a lot of goals and plans with a kind of timeline of like 35. ‘Cuz I opened Cake when I was 30, and so this time from 30 to 35, I had so much that I wanted to happen. Some did, much did not. And so now I'm thinking like, okay, 35 to 40, like what I want that to look like and how can I make plans and like, allow myself to dream in ways that are a little more open than what I, where I–and also like, informed by what I've gone through in the last five years. I don't know. I'm just like in a real–Saraya, you know this–in a real exploratory space of like, what's next for me? Um, not instead of Cake, but in addition to Cake.

And so, yeah. And also like, with our podcast ending this year too, I think that's part of it as well. Like, oh, I've been doing this for five whole seasons. Like, that I think is a bit of a, another one of those things that's making me think like, oh, what's next for me then? Like, without this level of creative outlet, like what, what else will I want instead?

I don't know. I'm just thinking about a lot of things. So yeah, but I think I would like to report that I feel like in a very good place in a lot of aspects of life, and excited for what is to come. And excited in a way that's different than, than how I felt before. I don't know, I don't know. Things are just kinda good over here.

CP: Which I think it's like, so wonderful, because it's all of like your locus of control, right? Like the fact that we have gotten to a point where we can figure out what we’re grateful for in the midst of so much pain and violence and despair, I think is just like, survival at its core too. So I'm so pleased that you're thinking about like, this season of your life, what you need, what you want next. ‘Cuz that, you know, you doing that and me hearing it helps me kind of consider like, oh yeah, I don't have to be stuck in all the despair that I like to cling to so desperately, because I do have control over some things still right now. 

CP: Yeah, you do. And Saraya, you've been making moves. So, can we tell the people a little bit about that? 

SB: Yeah. So I am, you know, as Cat always likes to remind me, a Capricorn through and through. And so–but I don't, I don't know. Like the money thing is not, I don't know if people are astrology like that, but like, money seems to be a consistent goal and motivation for Caps. I think mine is stability. Like I always wanted stability, and money certainly affords that, but that's not like, the be-all end-all for me. 

But, um, because stability has been so precious to me for so long, like, I was in the same job for seven years. And I really did the most with it and enjoyed it quite a bit. And then all of a sudden this position opened up, and somebody encouraged me to apply for it, and I was like, “Oh, I'll just do it for professional development,” and then cue the tornado from Wizard of Oz, and all of a sudden I have a new job! And I love it, I love it so much. 

CP: I love how you just glossed over all of that. (Saraya laughs) I just would like to, um, we don't need to tell everybody everything, but I would just like to say that  it was not just one person being like, “Oh Saraya, I think you should apply for this.” It was like, several people explicitly telling you you were so well-suited and so well-positioned and had the right skills and like, perspectives to do this new job. Like, you were–what did someone say, that you were like “a highly sought-after candidate”? I mean, just like, the positive feedback you got throughout the whole experience, I just want you to sit in for a little bit. Because like, it was all so well-earned, so well-deserved, and like, people were telling you how great you were and you were listening to them. 

SB: Mhmm. Thank you. Thank you for taking that time and making me listen to it. And like, I'll have to listen to it multiple times because I edit this so wow, well played, Cat.

CP: Over and over and over again! (Laughs)

SB: Oh no. But I think that's another part of like, this whole therapy journey and like the anxiety events and everything like that: it's allowed me more breathing room to consider, like, not only the worst-case scenario of everything, but the best-case scenario. And so leaving my team was hard, leaving my students was really hard, but it afforded these really beautiful conversations to understand my impact in their lives, which I wouldn't have gotten elsewhere, and also just to think about like, what is best for me? Like, what is gonna allow me to thrive in a way that I couldn't even foresee? And I'm really getting that now. 

And it’s hard. I mean, shifting jobs is always discombobulating I think, but also this is the first time in my whole life where I got to move from one position to another out of abundance and excitement and not just like, need or scarcity. And that is a game changer, let me tell you! So, yeah. 

CP: Oh, and it's been so cool for me as your friend to like, witness all of this. Because it–the whole time we've been doing Matter of Fat, like, it felt like a change was on the horizon, like on the distant horizon, you know? And it was just in your very like, slow, calculated, methodical way  kind of moving. Getting yourself to a place where you felt able to do that. And it's just like, really cool to see that happening. And the work you've put in to make this possible for yourself!

SB: Yeah. What I appreciate, too, is like, it was really competitive. And a lot of the people who went out for this position are really fabulous and would've done a fabulous job, and it was cool to be able to uplift others and talk about it while we were going through the process. So like, from start to finish, this really felt ethical and like aligned with my values and my hopes for how I wanna engage in professional development with myself and others, especially women, and, I don't know. 

All the way around, it's just been a really wonderful development, and I just feel really, really, really fortunate. In the mix of like, again, how just disgusting and zestful of life is around! Like, I feel weird being so grateful for these things where I can like, think about my mental health and, you know, make decisions that work for me. ‘Cuz I just, I feel like the worst is always–so like, that hasn't changed, the worst is still on the horizon, but I can let it be there on the horizon and not take over the day-to-day life as often. 

CP: And it's just, I don't think it serves us or anyone around us for us to just like, not find the opportunities, not find the possibilities, not find the joy in, you know, day-to-day, big or small or otherwise, you know, because everything is wrong with the world, which it is and has been? I don't know, just like, taking away the opportunity for joy and, and some of these positive things, like, for what, you know? Like it's not, it doesn't help anyone. 

SB: Yeah. I think it's–it’s not easy–it’s comfortable for me to fall into that despair and isolation, because I think a lot of what's happening is meant to do that. Um, so I'm not trying to say that, “Oh, you're not disciplined enough” or “You're not good enough to like, not be depressed right now,” 'cuz I'm still depressed.

But like, I think about this podcast and the fact that we can have this conversation is because we have carved out this space of communing, and that's why we can talk so candidly about the good things and talk with others about, you know, their stories, however beautiful or hard those are. And then still ask that question, like, “What is bringing you joy?” 

So I'm just really psyched that coming back into season five there's so many gratitudes that we carry. And also, you know, negatives certainly, but I just don't want to choose to focus on that right now. 

CP: Right, and I think that we, what I see us both doing and what I want for my life is like a space to do both, you know? I don't think it's appropriate or fair, or good for the world, to not address the things that are wrong, but I think it's just not healthy, for me anyway, to only, only sit with those things. 

SB: Yeah, for sure. 

CP: Yeah. Saraya, what else besides the new job has been–I mean, like, my God, update the people. Since November. I guess–you had a birthday too.

SB: Oh yeah, I did, I guess.

CP: Very long ago. 

SB: Oh, I went to Palm Springs! That was my first trip since the pandemic started and it was–okay. So that almost got waylaid by the COVID scare–

CP: –By me nearly giving you COVID. It was a really stressful couple weeks there. 

SB: That's alright though, it all worked out. And it was really, really beautiful. It was a family trip that had been put off for a few years. I was still quite nervous flying and traveling, and I haven't done it since then, but it was really, really special to have that time and just be in a different place for a little bit, especially in the bleak, bleak winter that we had. 

I did, however, get my first ever sinus infection, so that was fun! (Laughs)

CP: They’re fuckin’ rough.

SB: And it went so long 'cuz I was like, “Oh, it's just a cold, it'll go away,” 'cuz I had never had a sinus infection before, and now your girl has to take allergy meds every day. So that's, that's what I'm, 2022. Got that Costco pack.

CP: Me too!! Yeah, me too.

SB: Great, excellent. What else? Oh, okay, so we're if talking about seasons of life and things changing, I will be terming off the New Leaders Council board.

CP: After two years!

SB: Yeah! So I was–I mean, you've heard it a lot, and also Cat talked about NLC so many times before I even knew what it was, and I still didn't understand what it was at any given point.

So, New Leaders Council is like a six-month leadership institute. Curriculum is built out for fellows. There are 50 chapters all over the country, all that good stuff. So I was a fellow with the Twin Cities chapter in 2020, um, and then I've been on the selections chair position with the board for the last two years. And we just graduated our 2022 fellows, and it was so fun to hear the capstones and just be in community with such radical wonderful people who are changing the world for the better. And, like getting to hang out with the board has been really, really fun and a lot of work in these last couple weeks. So shout out to them, and it's sad to be transitioning away from that, and also kind of exciting to think about who will step into that role. 

And you know, how, what does that time mean for me? Like you were talking about creativity when the podcast is over. I'm curious, like, where do I wanna put my leadership? Or, do I wanna really just like lean into my introverted lifestyle and like, just be home? (Laughs)

CP: Yeah, with your dog!

SB: Which, after this pandemic, like, what? 

SB: I don’t know, I think it's just nice to find time to be, and just–

CP: –Well I think what's so special is that like, you will have more time, and you get to decide, you know? And like, you can do a little homebody life for some months, and then decide, “Oh actually I do wanna take this on,” but like right now, how could you even conceptualize any of that, because your time is so, you don't have that open space to even make those considerations?

SB: Yeah, I guess that's one thing that I've been working on over the break, and just like in the last year, which has been like stepping back from things. ‘Cuz I'm team join. I'm team like, “Oh, you need something done? I'll hop on. I'll do it. That's fine. That's no problem.” And I think over the last year, I've really tried to pare down what I'm doing, when I'm doing it. 

Because burnout, y'all, is real, and I'm really freaked out by how much I'm hearing about, um, organizations and companies just expecting productivity to go up and like to be in person. And I don't know, it all just feels very untenable. I'm not experiencing that myself, but I'm very mindful of the long-term feeling of it all, so. 

One way that I have been able to step away and really, I don't know, enjoy being in nature so much more: I know last year on the podcast, I talked about how having my dog, Bogart, like you're just outside. You just have to be outside. He’s a city dog, we don't have any parks, so we go for walks. But I love this app called AllTrails, which kind of gives you a heads-up on different trails, and gives you ideas of like, the length and difficulty and terrain of it. And so it's been really fun, just exploring different paths around the Twin Cities and around the state, um, and just being outside more. So I've enjoyed that quite a bit. 

CP: Oh, that's so cool.

SB: Um, what else? Pride just happened.

CP: Yeah!  

SB: Um, I didn't really attend any events. But I will say this is my first Pride where I have been actively using and finding a profound sense of self, um, with, uh, she/her and they pronouns.

CP: Okay!

SB: Yeah! That's been, it's been like a–what is it, a “soft launch,” that we like–when you soft launch someone onto your Instagram?

CP: (Laughing) I'm sorry, that makes me laugh! Like we're in a business product, like development situation.  

SB: Oh, no no. It's like when you soft launch, you know, a boo onto the ‘gram or something like that. I think you did that with Neno, actually, yeah. Like you just get their hands and an ice cream or gelato in the photo, yeah.

Um, so I, yeah. I started using it at work, nobody talked about it except for other queer people, which was like really great and also like interesting. And I don't know, I've never–I don't know where it'll take me, but it's been really profound to try it out and feel set and settled in that, so.

CP: Oh, that's so great. I love that for you. And so it's no longer soft launched. We are fully launched, she/they pronouns. 

SB: I mean, it's been in all the signature lines, but nobody's reading that anyways. So like, so yes, now it's full-on, now it's full-on. Um, so this therapy path has really put me on some big life changes, so there it is.

So anyways. I don't know, things are happening. I'm, I'm making changes. I'm here.I'm just doing my dang best, so. Which, okay, which is interesting though, to think about how much things have changed for us, because I want us to start talking about media, but it's been a real turn of events that I am like 21 books into 2022, and you, ma’am–

CP: –I’ve read, I’ve finished a total of two books. I have–

SB: –WOOOW–

CP: –I have three other ones currently that I'm like, working on, but I've only finished two books. I read them both in January, and since then, I've just been, I've been busy. 

SB: What were the books that you read? 

CP: So as mentioned, I read How to Not Die Alone.

SB: (Laughs) How Not to Die Alone. I die. Alone.

CP: The other book I read was called The Arc, and it was like a modern romance. It was about, like the premise was, it was about this special kind of dating agency and like, science and psychological philosophy that like found people and put them together. 

SB: That's some Black Mirror nonsense.

CP: Yeah, I've only watched one episode of Black Mirror ever, um, so I don't know exactly, but yes, that vibe I think. It was this author's first novel and I got it as an advanced listening copy, and so then I listened to it. And what was so cool was that I DMed her a question about it and she responded to me!

SB: That's very cool. 

CP: And we just like, had a back-and-forth about–I basically, I was like, “Was this satirical or like, meant to be real?” Or like, “Where, how did you come at this one thing that happened,” you know? And she's like, “Oh, well, kind of both, or kind of either, here's how I see it.” And, oh, it was just very fun.

It was a pretty gripping book, and it reminded me of like–what's the, I made a comparison. It was like, this book called In Five Years. It reminded me of a–and then it also reminded me of The Soulmate Equation, and then it reminded me of something else. It was just very much like these three things all together.

It was real–it was a good-ass book. Um, but yeah, sorry. Like the two books I've read all year. 

SB: I feel like that's what you should, you should just like, submit that to the author so she can put that on the book. “It's a good-ass book.”  

CP: Yeah. It's been, it is June and it is the first book or two, the first romance I read all year. It was good, but yeah, it's so silly to me to just be like, not reading hardly at all. But Saraya, you've been reading a ton. Did you say 20-something books?

SB: 21 books, yeah, already. It's interesting. Um, I will say I love that you got an advanced listening copy, but like, if it hadn't been listening, it would've been an advanced reading copy. And it's called The Arc. And it would've been an “ARC.” 

CP: I know. 

SB: That's very cute to me. 

CP: I know, yeah.

SB: Um, yeah, 21 books. So some of them have been good. Some of them have just been like, escapist things to listen to. Also, this year is the first year where I've been like, if I'm not into it, I'm letting it go. And that I think has been, honestly, the reason why I haven't read more over the last few years, or my lifetime, because I've been such a perfectionist that I'm like, well, if I started it, I have to finish it. It's like, no, you don't. 

CP: No, you don't. When you, do you count those toward your 21 or do you not count them?

SB: No, nope. They don't count. So I've probably started many, many more than that; and I have a few still in progress right now. But I, so I recently read Book Lovers by Emily Henry, which we talked with Kachina–was that last season? I think so. 

CP: No, that was, that was season three. That was when Beach Read was just coming out. 

SB: Beach Read, yeah. Okay so, we've been talking about Emily Henry for a long time–

CP: –Well she’s also done, this is her third book since then, right? Or she has three books total that have come out in pretty quick succession over the last two years.

SB: Yeah. And she's just, I just like the way she writes, like her language usage and the way she does characters–

CP: –You would. (Saraya laughs) She's good, in the ways that you would love.

SB: Yeah. Book Lovers is very meta. Um, it's just talking about books and anybody who likes to read books will pick up on the way that it's talked about.

I didn't love this one more than any of her other ones. There's like a Gilmore Girls aspect to it of like, this small quaint town. Which yeah, I was big in Gilmore Girls, but I can't, I can't hardly stand it these days. I don't know why. But it was good. Also, I will say the most like, exciting part for me was when she–so she did some really good worldbuilding where she referenced an author that was the main character in another one of her books. It was just really well done, so I was into that. 

Um, I don't know, I've been into like, witchy things and like, magic escapist things. So I don't even need to name any of those necessarily, but I will say, you mentioned In Five Years, and I read that on your recommendation and quite liked it.

CP: Did you bawl? Have we talked about it?

SB: I don't think we've talked about it. I think you suggested it because of food descriptions. 

CP: And that's actually why Arc reminded me of it, The Arc, 'cuz just like, it's set in New York and the way food is described–and also the, it's a little different in The Arc, but it's like, it's a romance, so you kind of know they're gonna be together, but you don't know what's gonna happen. Whereas In Five Years, you don't know what's gonna happen, but you know something's gonna happen. Did you like it? 

SB: I really liked In Five Years. Also, it just aligns some of the innovation work that I've been doing about just like, scoping out five year different five year versions. Also like, multiverse stuff is very hot, very trending right now, so I thought that was interesting. There was another book I read at the same time, which is Midnight Library, which has been on everybody's favorite list for a long time. Oh my God, that got me. 

CP: Um, what's it about? Should I read it? Do you think I'd like it? 

SB: I think you should, based on what you've shared today. So it is fiction, but it is this woman kind of like, going to this in between liminal limbo space where she gets to read other versions of her life and try them on. 

CP: You did tell me this. Oh, whoa. That time-space continuum stuff kind of is rough for me, and multiverse stuff feels adjacent to that, but also I probably would like it. It just would make me feel, make me feel weird.

SB: I think you'd really like it. Well, it was very similar to In Five Years in some ways, and so I thought if you liked that. I think you could do this one. Um, it wasn't as romantic-based, but there's still like, relationship arcs that make it engaging, so. 

Um, yeah, it hit me at a time that I needed to hear it, and really helped things. It's also kind of similar to–I can't remember if this is the right title. I'm sorry if you're listening to this and you're really upset that I'm not getting it right–but Eleanor Oliphant is Completely Fine or something like that.

CP: Oh yeah, I think Paxyshia really liked that one. 

SB: Yeah, I did too. So it had a feeling of that too. Um, what else? Seven Husbands of Evelyn Hugo. I think Paxyshia read that one. 

CP: Also one of her faves too. 

SB: Oh, so good. So well done, the narration for the audiobook, very very good. Um, and then the two other books that I've just really found fabulous is Please Don’t Sit On My Bed In Your Outside Clothes, which you've talked about, Phoebe Robinson.

CP: Everything and anything that woman does, I just am so drawn to. God, I love her. 

SB: Okay, you know what we didn't talk about? Your birthday! That, that like, our hangout for your birthday. 

CP: Oh, yeah! We did a little book birthday moment, it was awesome. 

SB: So the day that we celebrated Cat's birthday was independent bookstore day. And I didn't realize that, but I was trying to think of like, what would be fun to do for Cat's birthday? And I was thinking about all the quote-unquote cultural activities that we used to do back in the day, and one time we went to Phoebe Robinson's like, talk at the, what was it? It was like the Minnesota Book Conference or whatever, at the State Fair–

CP: –Oh my God Saraya, also–sorry, this maybe I should say offline, but whatever I'll say now–so like, as Neno and I have come together, we've like discussed like, “Oh, I went to this thing, I went to this thing,” and they were there. They were there! They were tabling for Button when we were there. 

SB: Oh, we definitely walked past their table, dude. 

CP: Uh huh, I know. And the year was like, what, 2016? ‘17? I think early ‘17. My hair was really short. Anyway, it's just like, so weird to put things together, like ships in the night, you know what I mean? 

SB: Sliding doors, my dude. Yeah. 

CP: But yes, we–Saraya and I often joke that before we had the podcast, we would do more like, cultured activities together. Like we would you like, you know, things that involve like media and culture. We saw Phoebe Robinson, we went to some other–we saw Roxane Gay–

SB: –Hari Kondabolu–

CP: –Who's also gonna be back here again, at the Cedar. Did you see ads for that? 

SB: No. I dunno if I'm ready for that 

CP: Same. We were packed in there so tight, I don't think I would be comfortable with that yet. 

SB: We saw Hasan Minhaj.

CP: Yes we did. That was, that was a little bit–

SB: –That was a lot. 

CP: Yeah. That was like our first, I think for both of us, our first like big thing, but it was shortly after we were boosted. So that was nice. 

SB: Those little brief glimpses where you think things are safe are really something. 

CP: Okay. So Saraya, you used all of this, like, our shared history to suggest a birthday outing that included independent bookstore day!

SB: Yeah! And so I was looking at–okay, do we know how to say this, Magers & Quinn? I've always called it Mager-something, whatever it's called. I was looking at them because that's where we saw Roxane Gay speak, and then it turns out it's independent bookstore day. So we hit up all these fabulous bookstores. We went to Birchbark, we went to Moon Palace, and then Magers & Quinn. Did we go to another one? I feel like that's a lot. 

CP: I feel like we did? I don't know. 

SB: It was fun, everywhere we went, I feel like Cat knew everybody, and that was cute. 

CP: Yeah. Just know people. 

SB: A woman of the town.

CP: And then you made me nachos after! Oh, so good. (Saraya laughs) You started a real nacho kick. I've been eating so many nachos since then. (Laughs)

SB: Oh, wait, you didn't tell the people, what else I put you onto! (Cat laughs) I like how, “put you on to,” these are all things that have existed for a long time. 

CP: So like, if you are, if you're from this area, you know Punch Pizza is a thing. I knew Punch Pizza was a thing, I drove past the various locations on a regular basis, but I'd never gone to one. One day Saraya and I are together–I forgot what this event was. We're like, we'll get dinner and we'll get headed someplace. And then, and like a quick change of plans, you were like, let's get Punch. And I was like, okay, great. ‘Cause I had never been. 

SB: I got very excited. 

CP: You did get excited.

SB: ‘Cause I forget about it, but I always enjoy it. So I was like, wait. I distinctly remember, I was driving and I look at Cat I'm like, can we go to Punch? And she was like, yeah. And I went, eeeeee! I made that awful noise. 

CP: I loved it. 

SB: And then I didn't realize you had never gone before though. And then the thing is, quickly after that, Cat has gone more times than I have, and I've known about it for decades. 

CP: I think I went eight times in three months or something. Just like, it's so good. It's so good. I just, yeah, it's so good. So, um, yeah, but you also put me on that recently too. I'm just, I think it's, I don’t know. I attributed it to like, a tourist thing. It's probably other things. Maybe it's just like how we are as humans, but for me, um, I really go on kicks where I just like want the same thing. Like, you know, right now it's nachos and Punch Pizza, honestly. Um, and maybe next year I won't really care for these things as much, but right now, like I cannot get enough of them. 

SB: We'll never know. We won't have a podcast to tell the people, so. Thank goodness your Instagram was robust. (Cat laughs) 

Um, okay. I'll wrap it up. The other book I will sa–oh, so one thing I wanna say: the essay from Phoebe Robinson about like, self-care, I thought was so beautifully done. She does a good job with most things, but that's the one that really stood out to me.

And then the other book that really, really, really got me was You’ll Never Believe What Happened to Lacey, which is a book by Amber Ruffin. And the audiobook is both of them, which is super engaging. And also, like every person should just listen to that. Or like, if you know a white lady who you think would be amenable to it, it's a well-curated balance of absolute nonsense, because racism is nonsense, and then like two people who do a good job of explaining that. 

Um, yeah, so I love that book. I think everybody should listen to it who cares to know more about that or like, just really like Amber Ruffin, 'cuz Amber Ruffin is incredibly funny. 

CP: Yeah, she really is. That's been on my list. I gotta, I gotta get to that this year. 

SB: It's a good time. I'm just like, still astounded about how they were able to break down such seemingly complex and nuanced topics just like, really really well. I think that's always something I'm engaged with when I read, so yeah. Those are some of the books I read.

Okay. What about, I need you to tell everyone what you wrote in our notes for the TV that you've been watching. (Both laugh) Verbatim, please.

CP: Ok. It says, “TV, dash, bullshit bullshit and more bullshit, and The Equalizer.” (Both laugh)

SB: It’s the funniest list.

CP: You might be familiar with Queen Latifah's hit show, The Equalizer, on CBS. I watched it on Paramount Plus, I think there's only been two seasons. It's really good, and what I love about it is that it is in principal a cop show, but she's not a cop. She's the person you call when you can't call the cops. And also she's just like, this fat stylish woman. And it's just like the cast is very heavily BIPOC folks, mostly Black folks. Um, whiteness is not centered in the way it is in a lot of these cop shows, and yeah, I just freaking love it. It's so good. 

And then also just like a lot of bullshit. I'm trying to think of other good things. I watched, like, the second season of The Flight Attendant. I didn't like it as much as the first, but it was still good. I'm halfway through Station 11, I'll get to the end soon. Um, it's incredibly captivating, but also kind of slow-moving in the beginning. 

Um, I don't know what else, but yeah, you know me, just like a lot of in-the-background shows. 

SB: Friends. 

CP: Well, we started–Neno likes Friends, and so I started watching Friends again. 

SB: Friends is popular!

CP: It’s an easy background show. I prefer it to Bob Burger's. That is also an in-the- background show that we've been watching as well. I'm coming around to–

SB: –I went to a live Bob’s Burgers thing back in the day.

CP: What?! Do tell.

SB: Yeah, so at the Ordway. I think it was–no, the Orpheum, which is in Minneapolis. It was at the Orpheum and, um, yeah, the actors and the creator were there. So they did a bit of a live reading and then they showed a clip from like a, a mocked out episode that hadn't been released yet, and then they also did their own standup for a bit as well, so. Yeah, it was pretty interesting. They're really, really talented. Um, I used to love Bob Burger's. I haven't watched it in quite a while, but. Just funny, funny stuff. 

CP: Yeah, it's cute, it is silly and funny. 

SB: You did see the movie. 

CP: I did. Well that's why I started watching it, 'cuz we went to go see the movie and I was like, well, before I see the movie, I should like, watch a little bit of the show, you know? 

SB: What other movies have you seen? 

CP: Why, you want me to tell people the bad movies? 

SB: Well 'cuz I have one, and it's pretty bad. 

CP: So actually mine rivals yours a little bit. Recently I had a bad day and was like, I just need to be in a movie theater eating two buckets of popcorn with my phone off, so I went to go see a matinee of Downton Abbey: The Next Generation. 

SB: What?! This is breaking news. I had no idea. Are you Downton girl? Do you know Downton like that? 

CP: No. The best part was I've never seen an episode in my whole life. (Laughs)

SB: Oh my God. 

CP: So I didn't know who anyone was. And then, I don't think it's a spoiler, but there's a death at the end, and like the whole audience full of like older folks was just in tears and I was like, I dunno know who this lady is. (Both laugh)

SB: Was it Maggie Smith? No, don't say, don't say, don't say, don't say. 

CP: I mean, I did know who she was like, in relationship to the family, but it had less meaning for me, 'cuz I hadn't watched this show for years, you know? But it was just silly. It was fine or whatever, but yeah, I saw that recently. 

SB: Amazing. 

CP: But yeah, Saraya, what have you seen recently in the movie theater at the good old Emagine?

SB: Oh, my gosh. Okay. I have a side, side story for you quickly though. Um, so there is a person, a friend of mine, Kyle, who loves Frasier. In fact, when you mentioned the episode or like we released info about Frasier on socials, he commented saying, “I cannot wait to–”

CP: –I saw that come through. It's daisycreativity Kyle, right? 

SB: Mmhmm, and he wrote a book called Daisy Creativity. Yeah, he loves Downton Abbey, and so you and Kyle are two for two on taste right now. I love this for you. 

CP: I just would like to clarify after–

SB: –No, you love Downton, you love Downton. 

CP: No. The movie, the movie was like a lovely couple hours to eat my popcorn in a cold theater, but I would not watch the show. It was–

SB: –Why not?

CP: It’s not quite me. No. 

SB: Well, you know what is quite me? Top Gun. I've seen so few movies in the movie theater, like it's not even, I think that's the first one I've seen this year actually. I saw it with my dad for Father's Day and it was, you know, engaging. It was very entertaining, plot holes galore. Like it just–the beach football scene was great though. Very into that.

CP: I know not of what you are–

SB: You have, you've seen on social media. The photo of Miles Teller dancing.

CP: I don't know who that is.

SB: Shirtless? Cat–

CP: I’m sorry, we, can you show me later? 

SB: I don't even know how to help you. No, like, did you see Whiplash? 

CP: No. 

SB: Did you see the Divergent series? 

CP: No. And this, y'all, is Matter of Fat Considers…Saraya being like, you know, this person from this thing, from this thing? No, no, no. Okay, go on Wikipedia.

SB: In ten ways, and we'll never get there. Um, that's fine.  That's okay. Uh, in any case, he's like, the hottie, and he’s–

CP: –Doing a beach volleyball moment. Cool. 

SB: Well, yeah, 'cuz in the original, did you see the original Top Gun? 

CP: Actually, no, I haven't seen that either. 

SB: Okay. But you know that there's like a really like homoerotic volleyball scene in it.

CP: No, but I feel like I need to watch it now. 

SB: I think you should. In any case, like, kind of recreated that with a beach football scene, which is really lovely, cute, and very into it. 

Um, so yeah, that's the movie I saw. But TV-wise, I don't know. I've been like, I feel like I've been in kind of a slump, but I'm still consuming a good amount. So I just watched and finished The Summer I Turned Pretty, which just released on Prime Video. 

CP: Were you just telling me about this one? 

SB: Yeah, it's the same person who wrote–I think her name is Jenny Han–who wrote To All The Boys I’ve Loved Before. And so this is, you know, a fun teen romance that takes place on a wealthy coastal city. It's very into the TikTok trend of like, coastal grandma aesthetic, which I argue is just like, Minnetonka mom aesthetic. Like all the people who are like, I wanna go to the Hamptons or I'm gonna be on the islands, it's like, that's just around Lake Minnetonka. That is Wayzata. That is Excelsior. Like, I know these are hyper-local Minnesota things, but it's all about that money and like that feeling old money on the lake is what it is. You know, it's the outer banks. 

CP: Okay, I don’t know about that. 

SB: The Pogs and the, and the, I can't even remember what they are–the Coops! The Coops.

Um, no, but so I just watched that, and it was just really beautiful and all the people were nice and attractive and that was fine. So it was a nice like, escapist thing. Um, the other thing that I'm very psyched about is Ms. Marvel. 

CP: What's that? 

SB: Um, it's on, I mean, it's on Disney and it is a retelling of the comics, but it features the main character Kamala Kahn, and it's just, they're doing such a good job at telling this really wonderful story.

And also like, I don't remember if I told this to you or even the podcast last year, but the first week of the pandemic, like that first was like, we're gonna be locked down for a week, I decided to watch all the Marvel movies that were out. Like I got the Disney+ trial, I was like, I only got a week, let's do this. I watched way too much, but I've been able to like track along with the Marvel universe pretty well since then. So, shoutout to friends the pod who lent me their Disney login. 

But this is an ongoing series. It's very good, it's very well done. Um, yeah. So I'm excited to see where that goes.

CP: Well, folks can expect more fat media recs to be happening as our season continues, 'cuz that is just something we get really wrapped up in. (Laughs)

SB: Well, I don't even know that anything I talked about has fat people in it, so there's that. 

CP: Also we did an entire Matter of Fat Considers…series and no one was fat, so. But we’re fat, and we're talkin’ about it–

SB: –Wait. Garcia!

CP: Okay. That's true. 

SB: Villains! Murderers! Kidnappers!

CP: Also that! (Both laugh) 

SB: Various side characters. 

CP: Oh actually, this is a correction I meant to give that I didn't give: on our Frasier episode, I forgot to mention the lawyer–I wanna say Ronnie, that's not his name–Donnie. Oh my God. Donnie. I forgot to mention Donnie, who is fat; and they do like, make fun of him in some ways, but he's also a really great guy, and also, like, really good at his job. So I don't know, but yeah, that was a fat Frasier character I forgot to mention, and it like, hit me after we recorded, like, oh my God, how could I forget Donnie? 

Well, it's the last, it's the lost Schitt’s Creek episode that you realized that.

CP: Yeah, we had an aha, and then we never–yeah. So I guess that's a little bit of inside scoop. We had a sixth Matter of Fat Considers… We talked about Schitt’s Creek, but it didn't turn outt. The recording was off, right? 

SB: It was bad. It was crackly and unusable.

CP: And we didn't have enough–

SB: –It's a real mystery. 

CP: Yep. We just, we did not redo it for you. That is one that will just live on the cutting room floor. (Laughs)

SB: Zencaster. It’ll live in my, in my computer until I need more space. 

CP: That's more like it. 

SB: Okay. But I'm glad we talked about fat things for a second. Let's actually talk about fat dish!

CP: Fat things, fat dish. I just would like to, uh, note that we predicted the future. Surprise, surprise.

SB: You. You predicted the future. 

CP: Yeah, I just–and I, we don't need to go into it too much 'cuz I already recognize this episode's getting, oof, our first fat dish is really–

SB: –Surpise! We talked more about ourselves than we thought we would. 

CP: Oh, we do it every time. (Laughs)

So one of the things we mentioned, I think maybe in a dirt and discourse or perhaps in a fat dish last season, was how Old Navy was really jumping on this bandwagon of size inclusivity. And Old Navy, by the way, has had plus sizes for a really long time, and has had some of them available in store, but not with regularity. And the main thing was like, things that you could find in a size medium, you couldn't find all of those things in plus sizes. But they were really bold and said, hold up, we are gonna now totally change how we're doing things–for only the women's clothing–and they decided that they were going to make things more uniform. So anything that was available in non-plus sizes would be also available in plus size, and the prices would be the same, and they would have all of those plus size options–well, all of the options and all sizes–in store. 

And it was a lot of really bold claims that really did seem aligned with what people were wanting and needing, but they just kind of fumbled and they didn't launch it very well. And what happened was, you know–whereas on the website, it was great. If you want things, you can find them, they'll be in your size. The price is the same in plus size as in non-plus size. But the stores were just a mess and there wasn't a lot available and they really over promised and under delivered, and then did the thing where they were like, oh, sorry, we thought this would sell more 'cuz you said you wanted it. It's your fault, fat people, so we're just not gonna have this in store anymore. 

I'm sorry, this lasted six months. Like you gotta, I mean, I have a lot of thoughts on how these companies need to be engaging with a plus size consumer and it, I think they just need to have more time, more care, concern, consideration, etc. But I’m really–

SB: –Ahem! Hire her! Hire her if you need people!

CP: I would love that. I would love that! 

SB: Get Cat as your consultant.

CP: That would be, I honestly think I'd be very well suited for that kind of work, and I would love to do it. But I just really reject this narrative of like, oh, it's your fault, fat people, for not buying this, after we tried so…made such a lackluster effort for you. 

Anyway, so it's not all lost. Like I said, you can go on the website right now and find things in a 4X–and their 4X, by the way, is a 28-30, which is, in some places, a size 30 would be considered a 5X. So we could say that their size range is one of the roomiest, or one of the widest out there. But just the way that that shows up in store did not happen. So that's something I wanted to dish about.

Did you ever go to an Old Navy, Saraya? Do you ever go to Old Navy? 

SB: I mean, yeah. I grew up in performance fleece, baby.

CP: Oh, wow. Sorry. Oh, really forgot about that one. 

SB: No, I don't even think–I think the performance fleece I had was a Target one, actually, now that I think about it. But I will say, no. I don’t go to Old Navy. (Both laugh) But I just haven't–the most clothing I've bought has been from Universal Standard, actually, just because that stuff will last you and it's good quality and there's sales. You can do pretty okay on their sales. 

But yeah, I think with Old Navy, as you were talking about it, it's like, that's not in my rotation because it hasn't suited me before. So like, what is gonna make me go in and like do it now? And you only give me a six month window when I'm not used to shopping like that anyways. 

CP: I am a bit more of an Old Navy shopper. Um, there are some things, like I really like their longline sports or comfy bras. I really like their tank tops. Um, I recently started buying kid clothes there for my goddaughter and that's really fun. So I am more primed to be an Old Navy shopper, and I think for that reason, I was really on the lookout. But like, I knew it was gonna fail before it began. And I don't mean, I don't mean to like, put that out there like that, but like, it just was not, they just over-promised, you know?

SB: I wonder if they think it failed. ‘Cause I don't think they do. I think they got what they wanted out of it, which was a big splash, a lot of people talking about it. And like the people who are paying close attention, I don't know, are their demographic or who they're trying to get, like, interested in what they're doing. 

I have, I guess, two thoughts around that. The first is that you're right in a lot of ways, especially because it comes back to the issues that are constantly showing up with plus sizing and like the lack of larger plus size options, which is just that, like, the people impacted by it is a smaller group of the folks wearing larger plus sizes. And to everyone else, it just looks so awesome, so wonderful. And to this smaller group of folks to be like, no, they're lying to us, like they're not doing it, you know, it's like, it's on them to have to push back. It's just so flawed. 

But I will also say I read a piece that I thought was pretty compelling and the CEO or someone, you know, a higher up at Old Navy was–or like it's Gap INC, right, that Old Navy’s part of–was quoted as saying, um, that like, an admission of like, doing too much too quickly or something like that. So it was, there was some language around that, but then in the same, in the same like statement, they mentioned like, yeah, plus size shoppers just really didn't like show up like we thought they would, with the subtext of being like, it's your fault, y'all, you know. 

SB: Mhmm, yeah.

CP: Yeah. Um, so yeah, so that's a little fat fashion dish. I think another dishable thing is that Lizzo's line Yiddy came out. 

SB: It did! I don't know. I was really excited when things started to drop on social, and then when I realized it was part of Fabletics, I was like, mm, I don't care. 

CP: Same. Yeah. I really held my, um, I, whereas like with Old Navy, I was really happy to like, you know, wish them ill 'cuz I knew it wasn't gonna work out, with Lizzo I really held my tongue. I was really waiting, I really wanted to be proven wrong. 

And where, whereas the size chart does go beyond the standard Fabletics size chart, the size chart goes–like the largest size that Yiddy offers is a size 26-28, which, for most places would be qualified as a 4XL, but Yiddy calls that a 6XL. So then in all of their language, they're saying they go up to a 6XL, which they don't. They go up to a 4XL. Which it's like, 4XL is still something, so like, name that. But again, it speaks to the issue that I mentioned about like, no one really notices this besides the people who wear a 6XL or wear a 5XL and, and, you know, it looks like they have something for them and they don't, and that's just, that's just too bad. And I hope Lizzo's making so much money, and also Fabletics needs to do better. And yeah, I just want better for exciting drops like that. 

SB: Yeah. I mean, I hope, I imagine she's doing well. I hope she's doing well. She's doing a good job of cross-promoting with a lot of stuff, but I don't know. I just don't wanna join Fabletics, and that seems to be the only way to get stuff at a cost-effective rate.

CP: Yeah, that is true. There is, I wonder if–'cuz there is a Fabletics store at the Mall of America, and I wonder if you can like get, if they–I imagine they have like stuff on sale or whatever there, and you could probably get things at a better rate, even if you don't join. But if you're purchasing virtually, you have to join their subscription in order to get the good deals, you’re right.

SB: Interesting, interesting. Do you think they'd even have size selections though? 

CP: They do, well they do or did have some. I've known, um, a couple folks who have went there and tried stuff on and had, and I don't think everything was available for them, but I think there were things that were available for them.

But again, it's been out for a while, so I don't know if there's like this, the same buzz around it and thus like the availability in store. But it'd be, I mean, if you happen to be at the Mall of America–which I know you aren't ever (Saraya laughs)-iit'd be worth popping in. 

SB: I will say I did watch the Carpool Karaoke with, um, previous–was it a fat, no–Dirt and Discourse where we talked about James Corden?

CP: Yes. 

SB: Um, Lizzo's on it, and she's got a lot of Yiddy stuff going on. She actually has James wear this like, puff Yiddy crop jacket at one point. 

CP: Honestly, I love that. And I do think the Yiddy style is not my style, but I think it's cool looking stuff. I mean, there's also stuff to be discussed about like, shapewear, oooh. How do we feel about that? That's, I don't, we don't–I don't care to go there now. Um, but like, there are parts about this that I really like, and I think it's very cool and special for Lizzo. It's just like, it's always the size stuff I come back to. It just feels like we're lying, and I don't appreciate that.

SB: I keep coming back to the fact that it's through Fabletics, which I think is like, probably a safe business venture, that if she's not creating her own brand, having to do all that infrastructure building, and also I would way rather support it if it was just Lizzo. 

CP: Yeah. But also you might notice that she does not talk about it like that at all. Like, her language doesn't reference Fabletics ever. It's all like, I went to the Yiddy store. No, you went to the Fabletics store that had the Yiddy section in it, you know? It's just the way it's being talked about.

SB: She calls it “major label stuff” for Yiddy, but it’s still, yeah.

CP: Yeah. So, I wonder if like, people are even as aware of that as we are, you know?

SB: Hmm, hmm hmm hmm. Interesting.

Okay, my dude, we've been chatting for a minute. Was there anything else you wanted to talk  about? 

CP: Yeah! There's some fat things people had requested us to speak on that I think we just gotta save for other fat dishes. Um, but one thing that is a little bit relevant as we're into the summer months, I wanted to mention that my shop Cake Plus-Size Resale is doing some fat beach days.

We are doing one fat beach day each month of the summer. So the July and August ones are still coming up when you, you know, are taking in this episode, hopefully. Um, and yeah, and so I'll link the info to those, but they're on Sunday afternoons at Lake Nokomis main beach, which is the closest to my shop.

Um, and they've just been fun. And Saraya, I'm hoping to get you out to one. 

SB: Heck yes, dude! 

CP: Yes. Yes. Wonderful. 

SB: The other one was on Father's Day. 

CP: Well, I had to make the choice of doing one on Father's Day or Pride Sunday, and it was like, well, I guess we're gonna do Father's Day. 

SB: Yeah, makes sense.

CP: So yeah, I think, um, the, I should kno– it's July 31st, I believe, and then August 21st. And so I'll share a link to those and, um, would love to see some of y'all there. I know many people who listen to Matter of Fat also pay attention to Cake stuff, um, but wanted to give that reminder. ‘Cuz remember Saraya like, back in our earlier–when, before the pandemic, pre-pan, when we were still in the studio doing Matter of Fat, we would often talk about like fat events and things. Um, and it's just been so long since we've been able to do that. So, community event.

SB: This a fat event. Yes, absolutely. Also this is so unrelated, but this is where my brain is at. When you said pre-pan, I was just thinking of pre-bread. So that's where I'm at right now. 

CP: I love that. 

SB: That's where we're at with the recording, the pre-bread. I don't ever wanna be pre- or post-bread. 

CP: Nope. 

SB: Anyways, I'm Oprah. I! Love! Bread!

CP: Oh my God. Just got it. (Both laugh)

So before we wrap up this Fat Dish episode, we’d like to introduce a new, I guess, kind of segment, if you will, that we'd like to infuse into these episodes moving forward this season, which is a little check-in, or, you know, affirmation or words from a previous guest on our podcast. 

SB: Yeah. It's just a part of us being intentional with this being the final season and realizing that so many people resonate with stories from our previous guests. So I don't know, it's fun to revisit and see where they're at or where their heart and mind is in regards to this project. 

CP: And the one we're gonna share today feels really special because it's from Kim Julin, who was the most recent interview, actually. She was our last interview of season four. You all might remember that Kim talked so much about like fat community life here in the Twin Cities in the early 2000’s, and it was just like, so cool to hear about.

SB: So Kim shared a favorite quote from Anne Lamont that says: 

“Oh my God. What if you wake up someday and you're 65 or 75 and you never got your memoir or novel written, or you didn't go swimming in warm pools and oceans all those years because your thighs were jiggly; and you had a nice, big, comfortable tummy; or you were just so strung out on perfectionism and people pleasing that you forgot to have a big juicy, creative life of imagination and radical silliness and staring off into space like when you were a kid. It's going to break your heart. Don't let this happen. 

CP: Aww! Love that Kim shared that with us to share with y'all.

[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]

SB: You've made it to the end of our very last, first episode of a fat dish!

CP: Oh my gosh. 

SB: Does that make sense?

CP: It's our first last! Wait, it's our last first.

SB: Whatever it is–

CP: –What it is, wow. We did it! And even though we've had a few episodes already, this really makes like, the beginning of the end feel a little more real.

SB: Yeah, so real. And yet, you know, some things are always the same. Like for instance: you can visit our website, www.matterofatpod.com to find show notes, transcripts info, access to older episodes, and a link to that Fat Cash via Venmo. And, uh, thank you to the people who have provided support already and got early access to our Matter of Fat Considers… silly, goofy TV episodes that helped us kick off season five.

CP: Yeah. To that end, we got some shoutouts. Okay, so big shoutouts, to Harry, Ashley and Kristen for their Fat Cash contributions. And to some folks who've left us Apple Podcast reviews, including Sophie Warrick, whose name you've heard before, one of our previous Matter of Fat assistants. Um, also a review from P.S. Darling, thank you thank you. And from Claire Bierly? Did I say it right? 

SB: Yeah, you did! Woohoo Claire! 

CP: Thank you, Claire. Uh, we love all of y'all. We so appreciate you. Um, yeah. Thank you so much. 

SB: Yeah. And if you'd like to stay up to date and keep the love going, like, you are more than welcome to subscribe, rate and review the podcast wherever you catch Matter of Fat. Um, and you know, for someone who is just doing her dang best, I think, I think we did okay. 

CP: Honestly, yeah.

SB: And it feels so good to be back at it with you, Cat!

CP: Oh, so good. Um, yeah, until next time when we're back with another episode of–

Both: –Matter of Fat!

[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]

-END-