S5E2: Summer Michaud-Skog, Outside Outside, + Safety Struggles
Season 5, Episode 2:
Summer Michaud-Skog, Outside Outside, + Safety Struggles
Released July 20th, 2022. For complete episode info, visit this page!
SB: I'll be the one, not like, like positively heckling, no, like cheering loudly and positive in the crowd.
CP: There should be a word for that, yeah, what is positive heckling–
SB: I don't know what it is.
CP: Vocally supporting? I dunno.
SB: Yeah. We'll, we'll work on it, yeah.
CP: Um, can we call it peckling? Positive heckling? (Saraya snorts) “There’s that peckler over there…”
Sorry for that noise. Absolutely not.
[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]
CP: Welcome to Matter of Fat, a body positive podcast with Midwest sensibilities. Hi, I'm Cat Polivoda; a local fat feminist, shop owner, and I'm trying to lean into more restful and restorative moments this summer. It's going so-so. I'm joined by my co-host and producer, Saraya Boghani.
SB: Hi, I'm Saraya. I'm a fat, multiracial, Minneapolitan millennial who recently got caught in the rain and did not love it. And I don't care that much for pina coladas either.
CP: On Matter of Fat, we talk about the cultural politics of fat liberation with a Midwest perspective.
SB: In this episode, we talk about being outside! While Beyonce wasn't, you know, talking about me in “Break My Soul” when she said, “You outside, but you ain't that outside,” it felt real, you know? I just try to identify with Beyonce lyrics as much as possible.
CP: Always.
SB: But it's due in very little part to that, and so much more that we are talking about what it means to be outside while fat. We also get to dive into our first interview of the season.
CP: Yes, we do! We're chatting with Summer Michaud-Skog about their book, the origin and growth of Fat Girls Hiking, and van life, all–
Both: As a Matter of Fat.
[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]
SB: Okay. So outside, which is like a huge concept, I guess.
CP: It’s a big place out there!
SB: (Laughs) The great outside, which actually I wanna talk about like, what is outside versus outdoors in my mind. I think this is getting to some semantics, but I think about actually outdoors as being like, very natural; like being in the, in the forest or hiking or being outdoors.
CP: You mean nature?
SB: Yes. Nature, versus the concept of outside, which to me just feels like being outside my door, which means just being in like public spheres with other people. I'm curious, where do you land on that kind of spectrum that I've just laid out before us?
CP: I think that's such an interesting thing to ponder. And, you know, I wonder if my thoughts on this are different now than they were maybe three years ago, pre-pan. ‘Cuz you're right, ‘cuz as you say this, I'm like, “Oh, that makes sense.” Like, being outside is like eating on a patio, or like, you taking Bogie for a walk, you know, like, just being outside. Whereas being out in nature feels different. So I don't know if I would like, if I'm so aligned with the outdoors versus outside way of describing it, you know, or defining it. But I do feel a marked difference between just being outside and being like, out in the great outdoors.
SB: Yeah. Well I think there's a couple different ways that we can talk about this, ‘cuz it is a pretty general genre, a genre. (Giggles) Whenever I say that, it's like, I think of the meme, “It's a genre. A bad bitch genre.” So, sorry y’all.
CP: Can you imagine people listening to any, like, if we were ever so lucky to have someone in five years listening to this, how little they would understand.
SB: Incomprehensible. Gibberish.
CP: What are these ladies even talking about?
SB: You know what though? It is remarkably true to what goes on in my brain. So like, that's fun.That’s fun, that's accurate, and I'm conveying everything that goes through my mind.
In any case, I think the way that we could talk about this episode is really focusing on maybe the natural aspects of being outside with this, this bit at the top of the episode. Just because it's, I mean, we're Midwestern. So we always talk about the weather. Weather is nice right now. It'd be really fun to talk about what being like outside or like in nature, or engaged in that as opposed to that public sphere, which–
CP: I think will come up more maybe later? We have some Dirt and Discourse things to say about that.
SB: So let's, okay. I know, like, we like to do a little personal catch-up related to whatever we're talking about. And so I guess for me is that I have been, I am just going to pull from the internet because that is my personality. I don't have any original thoughts. I just look at memes and translate them–
CP: –Wait, I just need to time out. ‘Cause like, you're not wrong, but you are wrong. So like–(Saraya gasps, both laugh)
SB: How dare!
CP: You are so well-versed in internet culture and meme curation.
SB: Oh, thank you. LinkedIn, will you endorse?
CP: But I would submit that you are, like, you add to it. Like your curation of it and like usage of it does not mean that you have no original thoughts on the matter, but that you are adding to what is there in ways that like, are more funny or like are more curious than what's already being created. So may I just offer–
SB: –That is high praise. I’ll take it. I’ll bottle that up.
CP: It’s true though, Saraya! It’s true!
SB: Thank you. That's very kind of you. But I think that's what's so interesting about meme culture. Not that that's what we're talking about, but we're kind of like, I think about cave paintings, right? And like, that's how we're communicating now. With just photos. Maybe a little bit more, like, context around it, but I love that for us. Let's go back, simpler times. Simpler pleasure.
But, uh, this is all to say–thank you for that kind compliment–that there was a post from, uh, notallgeminis on Instagram. Do you follow them?
CP: Maybe? Probably not.
SB: They do a lot of astrological, you know, adjacent things. And so they had a picture of Cassie from Euphoria, or at least the actress who plays her, just kind of like sitting at a patio outside and looking really sad. And it said, you know, “Capricorn.” And it said “Still sad, but covered in sunscreen.” (Both laugh) And that's like, what the hot girl summer status is.
CP: Oh yeah. No, I did see that in your memes. Yes, yes.
SB: Ok, ok. So that, that is mine. And I think that was very accurate. It felt good, you know; I'm still gonna be sad, I'll be outside and I will have UV protection going on.
And that's kind of what my, my life has been like. I've been more exploratory, going on different trails, trying different parks out.
CP: You always were about that, but you are more now that you have the dog, right?
SB: Yeah, well, it started with a pandemic ‘cuz I thought everything was unsafe, so just being alone out in the woods felt safer. Um, but definitely now that I have a friend to drag along with me, and constantly shove my hand in his mouth to take out whatever he's trying to eat. Is it a bone? Is it a wood chip? Is it a piece of pizza? (Both laugh) Who knows when you're in the city, it's always a fun gamble.
So that's, that's kind of it, and that actually relates to what I said at the beginning. I did get caught in a summer storm the other night, it happened for real. It wasn't just a cute made up thing for the clout. It was this wild stormy night and it was clear, and so I took Bogart out for a quick jaunt, and we definitely got caught in the downpour. It is not romantic. It is not fun. I
walked in and one of my neighbors saw me and they're like, they looked at me aghast and I said, “It’s raining outside.” (Both laugh) Like drenched, absolutely drenched. So I think it's a gamble going outside, and I don't know where the story is going, but I will say it's really beautiful until it's not.
And, yeah. But that's where I'm at with being outdoors, as of late. What has being outdoors or outside looked like for you in the natural, in the natural side of things?
CP: Well, I also reference to what I mentioned in my, in our intro, which is that I'm really trying to lean into what is restful and restorative. And maybe I'll get into that more in an upcoming Fat Dish, but like, I'm really realizing that reflection and restoration feel really essential for me this summer in particular. And so I'm trying to think about, what would be restorative for me? I'm honestly still thinking about it, but one of the main things I know to be restorative is being outside in a body of water. Like, that is just, that is–and then to be with my boo outside in a body of water? Next level, you know? Like the most restor–it's just, that's what's been bringing me a lot of joy this summer.
Um, and actually it started out with–so my shop, Cake Plus Size Resale, has been doing some fat beach days this summer. We used to do these big ol’ fat pool parties, and hopefully they'll come back sometime, but like this summer, while we're still in pandemic life, we decided to do something much more lowkey.
And so we've just been going to Lake Nokomis. There's been one fat beach day every month of the summer, and so if you happen to be listening to this as it comes out, there'll be a couple more coming up for you!
Anywho, the one in June was my first day at the beach all summer. And I have been swimming quite a bit because we joined the Y, and so I've been doing water aerobics a lot, and I just, oh gosh, I love being in the water. Um, but I forgot how much better it is when you're outside. Like, it's just infinitely better for me to be out at the beach, like with the wind blowing and the sand and the sun. And it's just like, oh, I don't know. It’s hard for me to put into words how much that fills me up. Like it's just really, really good.
And so, yeah, since the first fat beach day I've been trying to do more outside stuff, including, we went to Weber natural pool the other week.
SB: Where is that?
CP: It's over north. Um, it's been around for–actually years ago, when the Twin Cities Fat Community Facebook group was just in its inception–maybe its first or second year, so we're talking like 2016, maybe 2017, before the shop opened–we had a little meetup over there. Have you never been?
SB: I didn't even know it existed.
CP: Okay, Saraya, it's so cool. I don't understand the science behind it all, but it is a natural pool, meaning there's no chlorine or anything. It's like plants and rocks that filter it.
SB: Is it saltwater?
CP: No, it’s not saltwater either. It's like filtered in a way, again, beyond my comprehension, but in a way that works. And I notice like, my skin feels really good after being there because it's not zapped with chlorine or saltiness. It's just, oh, I don't know. It's really nice.
And most of the–it's a pool. It's like a, you know, human-made creation pool. But then, you know where some–most pools I go to are very concrete-heavy. This has a lot of grass around it, and a lot of green space. It's just, it's really nice.
And I don't know if this is the rule, but when we went the other week, it was free. So we just got to go in. It was awesome.
SB: Yeah. I think you only have to pay if you're doing lap swimming.
CP: Oh, so that's good to know. Yeah, we didn't do that, but I would do lap swimming there. Um, but yeah, if you ever wanna go over there.
SB: I think that is more my style. Because I did, I was over by Lake Nokomis the other day for my friend's birthday. So we just did–I mean, if we're gonna talk about outside, I love being outside with people in parks or, you know, patios too. But we were celebrating and it was like, a little overcast, so we were right by the picnic tables off by–I didn't even know there was an eatery over there.
CP: Yeah, there is, yeah.
SB: So we were off to the side and it was so beautiful out, but then I saw like the swimming area and it was packed.vIt's like overcast, qnd of course, Minnesotans are out in full force. Like it might be storming, but people will be swimming. Um, what I couldn't get behind is there were just like lots of ducks in the swimming area, and then children right next to the ducks. And I was like, “I don't like any of this. I don't like any of this.”
So like, I like a good lake float. I like to be in the middle of the lake, or swim in the middle of the lake. Around the edges. It just eeks me out for whatever reason.
CP: I agree. Um, we've went to a couple other, like I went to Lake Johanna the other week. It's just this little beach in Little Canada, I used to go there when I was in college a lot. And that was–
SB: Is that where your graduation party was?
CP: Yeah. We don't need to talk about this.
SB: Okay, are you sure? That taco dip though?
CP: I'm sure. I'm sure. Well, let's just–well, now that people have–if you've not heard this story already, when I graduated college, I did a little get-together thing and my mom put some stuff together and it was really cute. And it was at Lake Johanna, not at the beach, but at like one of the little, you know, pavilions that you can rent out or whatever.
Well, there was very severe weather, which resulted in all of us, all three people who were there Saraya included–
SB: Well, it was so severe that nobody came out.
CP: It was just severe, severe weather, but somehow Saraya and um, our friened Mam made it through. And so cut to the three of us in the concrete bathrooms, like, eating snacks.
SB: Yeah, no, I was not eating in the bathrooms. I feel like Mam was the only one eating in the bathrooms.
CP: (Laughs), She was like, “This taco dip’s great.”
SB: She brought the taco dip because you gotta, one thing about inclement weather is you have to protect the taco dip.
CP: That's so funny.
SB: That is important.
CP: So anyway, yes, that's the one–but I bring it up because that was very full of ducks and of seaweed at the bottom of the lake, which really grossed me out.
SB: Ishy!
CP: Yeah, but I haven't experienced that at Nokomis. But you know, as we're talking about this, I'm feeling like Lake Nokomis beach, as an example, is sort of this space where the outdoors and outside come together, you know what I mean? Like it like overlaps, because in some ways it is very naturey, but in other ways it is absolutely a public space where there are lots of people depending upon what time you're there, you know?
SB: And like, infrastructure. I think about how the bridge with so many cars traveling over the lake is right there.
CP: And the airplanes are really loud over there.
But to me, I still, when I–I guess I haven't done this at all this summer, but in the previous two summers when we've been in more–well, it's still pretty heavy pandemic. The two previous summers, what I would do often is like, go by myself, leave my stuff on the beach, and then just swim out to the deep end and then flop around for an hour. And so there were people out there, like people at the beach, but I didn't feel like they were around me, and I could just be there with the sun on my face, like in the cool water.
And yeah, I would hear planes and stuff, but like, to me that's still really restorative. And does feel outdoorsy, but like in a different way than like being, you know, at Glacier National Park makes me feel outdoorsy.
SB: You know what would be the height of like, restoration and luxury? Having like, a private pool or a private lake or like a, or like a natural pool. Like that would be the height of luxury.
CP: I agree, I agree. Maybe someday when I'm a rich bitch, I've dreamed of this a lot. If I have a pool at my disposal, I will hire someone to do really cool, challenging but fun water aerobics classes with really good music. And it'll be like, open invite to every fat person I know.
SB: Honestly, if you are a rich bitch, you would be the one leading and curating all that.
CP: (Giggles) Yeah. That'd be so fucking fun!
SB: Oh my, oh my God. God, you'd be a fitness influencer.
CP: No, I don’t think, I don't know. You know, that’s actually something I might–gosh, we're really talking everywhere, aren't we? Um, but this–(Both laugh)
SB: –This is such a well-organized first interview episode!
CP: –But I do feel the need to share now that that's something that, you know like when you have those check-ins with yourself about like, “What do I really wanna do?” Like where are my, where do my passions lie? For the last probably 15 years, something that is kind of carried over always for my list is like, “Oh, maybe I could just like, increase my stamina and like teach workout classes.” You know? That's always been there. And for someone who doesn't always work out so much, like, I just really–just a dance workout class or a water workout class really just brings me so much joy. So to be able to share that with other people would be really cool, but it would require a lot of like, I would really need to increase my stamina, and I don't know if I have the interest or time to dedicate to that, you know?
SB: Yeah.
CP: In terms of joy-making those are some things for sure, for me.
SB: As far as private moments go until we're, we're filthy rich and have our own pools, honestly, we should do the whole Kris Jenner-Khloe situation where our houses are right next to each other.
CP: I love that so much!
SB: I dunno. I'm not gonna be a rich bitch, so I don't know why I'm talking about this like that, but I have been looking at Swimply a lot.
So we, you and I actually rented a hot tub in the winter, which was really fun, but Swimply is like an Airbnb for pools and hot tubs and things like that, and I stay on that site.
CP: Yeah, you bring it up a bunch. When we gonna go to the pool?
SB: Yeah, I booked one for this week coming up, but it's just like a quick dip out in Minnetonka, so it's not like a thing. But I don't know, dude. You're busy. When are you free?
CP: We’ll have to talk offline about that. Also, I feel like–
SB: (Laughs) Oh, we don't wanna tell everybody your schedule? Your calendar? (Both laugh)
CP: Also something related to that that I am apprehensive to share but I will share, cuz it's one of those things, like if I say it, I have to do it and I really wanna do it–
SB: –Love this, accountability partnership–
CP: –Right. Some of my coworkers at Cake, when we went to our first fat beach day, we were like, “Wouldn't this be fun to do by ourselves, but at a pool?” So I think that we're gonna try to do some kind of Swimply, like, staff pool party thing this summer still too. And that would just be–
SB: –It's a lot more expensive than it was last summer. I'll just tell you that much.
CP: Cake, as I say, Cake will be footting the bill, but also, yikes, Cake will be footing the bill. But that is still o my, my hopeful list for this summer. ‘Cuz I think that that would just be so, so fun.
SB: So fun. I guess, okay. So like, the version of my life that is a private pool–it's not really a private pool–but I do have a balcony and it is very cute. I have two comfortable chairs, a little table, some plants, like some big palms. Um, and it has a really nice view of downtown Minneapolis. And so that has been kind of my exclusive–I'm really fortunate to have my exclusive, like, door to the outside. Because I'll just go and hang out there and read at night, or have coffee in the morning, you know, do a little Wordle moment. (Laughs) And my dog likes to spy on everybody in the neighborhood from there.
CP: Your balcony is looking like really cute lately. The furniture you got's really pretty. And I will say that is something that I have felt as like a deficit in my life now because of the pandemic, more than ever; like just, I'm always craving a private outdoor space of my own, and that just doesn't really exist when you live in an apartment that doesn't have like patio or balcony space, you know?
SB: Yeah, but it's an interesting concept too. It's like, what is this desire for privatized, like nature or privatized outdoor space? I don't know.
CP: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think for me, a lot of it is just pandemic-related. I wanna be able to be free to not have a mask on, be outside, be in the fresh air and not be worried about like impacting other people or them impacting me.
SB: Yeah. I was just gonna say my answer is safety as well, which I think actually gets us into the Dirt and Discourse later.
CP: Ooh, so let's save that and get into this interview! (Laughs)
SB: Yeah, let’s do it, let’s do it.
CP: Yes! Okay, okay. We gotta get into this interview with Summer Michaud-Skog.
[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]
CP: Summer, we're so glad you could join us on Matter of Fat!
SM: Thank you for having me.
CP: Okay. We get to ask you a question that everyone gets asked who's interviewed on our podcast, which is: Summer, what is your story as a matter of fat?
SM: My story as a matter of fat is, well, I grew up and raised in Minnesota, um, in a small town. I was thinking about this question, because I was definitely teased as a kid for being fat by my peers, and I think this happens to a lot of people. But looking back at pictures and stuff, I was like, I don't really think that I was really fat. I was maybe just bigger than my peers in a, in a way. But you know, that definitely had an imprint on me and my development and the way that I saw myself and, and really being aware of how others viewed me as well.
It was really damaging in a lot of ways, and I was really bullied for the way that I looked and the clothes that I wore. You know, we grew, I grew up really poor, and so we had secondhand clothes and, you know, free lunch and all these things that I think kids tend to hone in on at certain ages as differences, as bad things.
And then, you know, as I got older and I became a teenager, I got really weird, which honestly I think was so great for me. I really just really experimented with my style a lot. And–
CP: –You and me both, my friend. (Laughs)
SM: Yes, I know! And it was the, you know, I graduated in ‘96, so it was like mid-nineties and I was like grungy, alternative, weirdo and chubby. I was definitely, at that point, like what I would consider–I was fat as a teenager, you know?
My dad worked at a modeling agency actually, in Chicago, when I was a teen, which was a very interesting juxtaposition to being like a weirdo fat teen, you know? I was a feminist and really into like, Riot Grrl and making zines and stuff like that. And, you know, we would go visit him at his work at the agency, and it was just so funny to be around models, essentially, who were my same age. And then to get to know them and talk to them and we would hang out with them and stuff.
And the thing that really stuck with me I think was that, you know, these girls who are like, you know, quote-unquote, “beautiful,” or like, they're like the ideal, right? They're what you see in magazines, they're praised for the way they look, but what I found out was that they weren't necessarily happier because of it. They were just like, you know, had this same kind of body image stuff that I had as, as a fat kid, you know?
And I think that that was like some sort of, I don't know, seed for me in my journey towards body liberation, in a way. Because I think that we, you know, as teenagers, I think that the–I feel like culture was telling us to strive to this beauty ideal, and knowing that it wasn't something that made you happier, like, I really took note of that, I think.
Um, so that was, you know, it was really interesting. And then, you know, I was really into zines. So I remember reading Marilyn Wan's “Fat! So?” zine, which became a book. But it was like the first time I was really aware of people using the word fat in a positive way or a neutral way, not as a derogatory term. So that was like, you know, that was really powerful to me.
And just being a teenage feminist, I think, was really powerful to me in my journey toward body liberation. Because you know, it was kind of like, fuck the patriarchy and fuck the patriarchy's beauty standards. And, you know, we don't need to be like that for, for what, for it's like for the male gaze, I guess. So that's kind of like the beginnings of my Matter of Fat story, I guess.
I don't know. I've been fat, you know, most of my adult life as well, and had pretty neutral feelings about my body, you know. I didn't really face a lot of, I don't know, pushback or comments or negativity necessarily, but obviously it's everywhere in our culture. So it really does, like, it's kind of like this weight that you're–the weight that's like such a–I didn't mean–
SB: –Puns are plentiful on this podcast. (Summer laughs) That fit in beautifully.
SM: But it's like this, this thing you carry, right. That, I don't know. It really, it really does. It's a burden to bear those ideals, I think. I mean, obviously, you know, you all are familiar with that as well.
But yeah, I think that's sort of–I don't know if I have more to say on my Matter of Fat story, but I'm open to more questions.
CP: This is great!
SB: It is great. And I think, you know, in your book, which I think continues to tell that story a bit, you had mentioned, obviously, Fat Girls Hiking, which is something we wanna get into. But even being out on the trail and you know, all of a sudden having these thoughts unbidden about why you don't deserve to be there, or why you can't do certain things because of your body, and I think that gets at what you were just saying about no matter how neutral or positive you are, it's just so prevalent that it kind of rears its ugly head from time to time.
So, um, I guess that's a long segue into asking you to tell us more about the origins of Fat Girls Hiking. I assume it kind of aligns with what you've told us so far about the origins of your own approach to your body and body liberation, so I'd love to hear about that, and then maybe what it looks like today.
SM: Yeah. It’s been such an awesome journey, I will say. I started Fat Girls Hiking in 2015, and it, it was really just an Instagram account. ‘Cuz I'm a photographer and I'm a writer, and I really just wanted to have some representation for, you know, fat people or queer people. I was, you know, new to Instagram and really wanting like–new to hiking as well. And like, really just wanting to find other people who were doing this new activity that I was like falling in love with. And it really wasn't anywhere on Instagram at the time. There wasn't a lot of things that people weren't talking about; fat liberation or body positivity was like, kind of in the mix, but like, not really.
Um, and so like, all the hiking stuff I was seeing on Instagram was really like, um, centering thin cishet males with money who can, you know, people who can buy the gear. And obviously there's nothing wrong with being all of those things, but it really wasn't representative of who I am and my experiences and my identity. So I really just wanted to offer my voice to the outdoor industry and to other people who maybe weren’t getting outside and weren't seeing themselves on REI’s page or, you know, the places where people would normally look for inspiration on getting outside.
That was kind of the beginning: just me telling my story about what I was doing, where I was camping and where I was traveling to and how I was doing that. Um, and then, you know, as I was posting things on Instagram, people started using the #FatGirlsHiking hashtag, and that was like a surprise to me.
I didn't really, you know, I wasn't really intending on it being anything other than just my stories, but I was really excited about it. I was like, “Oh, well, maybe this is how I can find other people and connect with other people and, you know, not feel so alone in like, I'm the only fat person who hikes,” kind of. ‘Cause obviously it wasn't true.; like, I had fat friends at the time who were hiking with me.
So then after I started posting other people's pictures and having other, giving other people a chance to like tell their stories and their experiences. And then it just kind of like became this thing where people were like, you know, seeing the hikes that I'm doing and other people are doing, and people saying like, “We wanna hike together.” Like, “We wanna hike with you.”
And I was like, “I have no idea what I'm doing.” Like, I don't know what I'm doing. I'm a new hiker, I don't know how to lead hikes, I have no idea how to even do that. But I really did wanna have, like, I really did wanna find friends who wanted to go hiking, because I didn't really have a lot of friends who were super into hiking in the way that I was becoming super into hiking.
So then I started leading hikes, and the first several hikes, nobody came. And I was like, “Oh no, this feels kind of sad just to be at the trailhead by myself.” But I was like, “I'm just gonna keep trying.” And so I kept trying and posted a hike and it was like, actually a nice day. And it was a waterfall hike, which, people love waterfall hikes. So, you know, five people showed up, I think, to the third hike I hosted. And it was so exciting. I was like, “Oh my gosh, there's five people who wanna hike with me. This is the coolest thing,” you know?
Um, and we did the hike and, you know, I wasn’t really sure how to lead hikes. I didn't know, like I didn't have, you know, a mission statement for Fat Girls Hiking. I didn't have community guidelines. I didn't really know how to do all of that. And I was sort of just like learning as I went, you know, through the experiences I was having on hikes with other people, and just really like trying to create this, um, this space where we weren't talking about dieting, we weren't talking about weight loss, you know, we were really just like fat people enjoying the outdoors together.
And you know, that can be kind of tricky to be like, “Hey, you know, this space is like not welcoming of that kind of language.” Um, I did get some pushback from people who wanted to be in the community but like, also wanted to openly talk about how they were pursuing weight loss. And I'm really like, you know, I'm all about body autonomy and people can do whatever they want with their bodies, but I also know how prevalent, like it's–like we said before, diet culture is so prevalent in our culture. It's literally everywhere, it's like ingrained into our culture. So to have this one little space where we can just come together and celebrate who we are and support each other and have that not be a focus was amazing you know?
It really felt like, really disrupting the ideas of what it means to be outdoorsy also, and hat was really exciting to me. ‘Cuz I'm just kind of like a rebel, kind of a brat at heart, and so kind of pushing back on the stereotypes that fat people can't be outdoorsy was really fun to me, you know?
So we did some epic hikes; some like we climbed a mountain, you know, there's like this mountain just outside of Oregon, outside of Portland, where we went and hiked a mountain and it was amazing. We've did so many hikes, and then I really wanted to focus more on accessibility. I started to have like the–I was hiking a lot, and I started to get some really bad chronic pain, and that really changed things for me. I have a friend who also has chronic pain and just realizing some of the trails that I was choosing for community hikes were not accessible to everyone was kind of heavy on my heart once I kind of realized that.
So I really started to focus on finding ADA-accessible hikes; ADA is the Americans with Disability Acts. So it's like, trails are graded in a certain way so people who use wheelchairs or mobility devices can access the trails. Portland has a lot of really great trails like that. Um, and then also just like, thinking about other things that we need, you know. As like, for me with chronic pain it’s like, I love to have a place to sit down and rest; that really helps me to keep hiking, so finding trails that have benches, and then also thinking about things like, are the bathrooms gendered? And just having this information for people and just making it more and more inclusive has been a journey.
But you know, now today there's 37 chapters–well, this was pre-pandemic, there was 37 chapters. Um, it's kind of changed a bit through the pandemic, but to build the chapters has been amazing as well. It’s people wanting to have hiking groups where they live, so they can have the same kind of outdoor community that's supportive and celebratory and outside of diet culture, essentially.
So that's been the journey. It's been a long journey, and I'm not always so confident in my ability to do the work because it's kind of up and down. But when I talk about the progression of it over time, it's, yeah. It's been really rewarding and really challenging, and it's my passion, so I'm happy to do this work.
CP: It is so cool to hear, from this little Instagram where you just were like sharing your story to then like 37 chapters, you know? It's just very cool to hear about. And so for us, like we talk a lot about fat community on our podcast, so I guess we're curious: what has it meant to you to start this and see this grow and thrive in the context of the Fat Girls Hiking community?
SM: Oh, man. It is like, what has it meant to me? It's like, it is such a gift. I mean, that's, I don't even know because it's so meaningful to me, to be able to see people who have, who think they can't hike because they're fat or they have a disability or they're queer, or all the kind of marginalized identities that we hold, like we're not represented.
So just to see that people feel welcomed in the space and feel like, you know, they can go hiking, because maybe they just didn't think about certain things that they could do that would make hiking accessible to them; it has profoundly changed my life.
And it's so funny to me because it's like, I'm so in it like day-to-day that I sometimes have to stop and realize the impact the work has had on me, you know? I know it's had impact on others because I get emails and messages all the time of people saying that Fat Girls Hiking changed their life, or saved their life. One person emailed me once and said that it saved their life! And like, wow, like I cry thinking about this because it's like, what a powerful thing! And to have that impact on people is like–I, you know, think as a kid I always thought, like, “I wanna change the world.” And I feel like in my little way, I am; I'm like, changing the world in a better way for fat people to just, you know, connect with nature.
And I think it's something that we lose.I mean, I definitely know I lost my connection to nature and my twenties and most of my thirties, and to regain that connection to nature that I had when I was a kid is, um, it's like joy is at the center of my world now because of it, you know? And, and then to offer that, um, to others is, I don't know. It's amazing. It's just amazing.
CP: It's so beautiful to hear.
SB: It is so beautiful. I just, I have so many questions, right? But you get at the heart of all of my questions in your beautiful book, Fat Girls Hiking: An Inclusive Guide to Getting Outdoors at Any Size or Ability. Like that's what we've been talking about, but would you give us just a little teaser with like a couple of tips that you would have for people who wanna start exploring, or people who wanna re-explore the outdoors, but may feel or have felt excluded from doing so?
SM: I think that it's really important to think about, what do you wanna see when you go on a hike? Everybody has different things in nature that they're drawn to. Some people are drawn to waterfalls, some people like the forest, some people like desert–whatever it is, or whatever you have near you, find a hike that will–start with something that feels easy to you.
I will say that I don't believe that all hikes, that the ratings of hikes are accurate. If you're like me and, you know, slow and you have chronic pain, I think it’s–a tip I would say is, try walking in a park or somewhere that you feel safe to be walking and figure out how far you can go or how far feels comfortable for you. Then find a similar distance for a hike.
The other thing is you can also just try any hike that looks awesome and you wanna try it out, and just give yourself permission to stop whenever you need to stop and rest. Take a break, get a drink of water, have a snack. Read the Fat Girl’s Hiking book (all laugh) shameless plug. Bring that book hiking, please!
Just give yourself permission to be in your body, and connect with yourself, and connect with nature. Those are my more like, self care-y tips; that you can turn around anytime you want to; when you're tired, if you're just not feeling it, if you're in a bad mood and it's making you in a worse mood, go turn around and go back to the car and try another time.
It doesn't have–you get to decide what your hike looks like, and I think that's really important. I think that the outdoor industry really pushes this sort of, colonizer mentality of like, conquering mountains and pushing through, and like making yourself uncomfortable. But like, for me–and I think for a lot of other fat people–if you feel uncomfortable or unhappy, you're probably not gonna keep hiking. You're probably not gonna try it again. You're probably gonna be like, “Well, that really sucked. I'm not gonna do that again.” So I just really want people to connect with the outdoors in a way that feels good for them.
So even if it's like, sitting in your yard and really connecting with the intricacies of a leaf, or watching the wind in the trees or whatever, it doesn't have to be a big thing where you have to bring a pack, even. It can just be something simple, like sitting in a park, but being really intentional about that connection with the natural world.
‘Cuz I think that when we have people that are more connected to the natural world, we have more people who want to protect the natural world. That is huge, because we need more people who wanna, who want to do that.
But then some more like, like–let's say you decide you're going on a hike, you found a hike, you're ready to go. In the book there's a list of things to bring with you in your pack: make sure you have water and, you know, calorie-dense snacks. First aid kit is great.
I love trekking poles. It's like, they look like they're like ski poles, but you know, they have like a pointy thing at the end. For me, trekking poles really help my chronic pain, help my knees, give me stability, keep me stable. I think that I used to think that trekking poles were not for me, or they were only for a certain type of person, and the truth is they're for anybody who needs them.
Also , you know, I always advocate for bringing a camping stool. If you're a person who wants to be able to sit and rest, they have these little fold-up stools that you can just put in your backpack, and then anytime you need to sit and rest, if maybe the trail you're on doesn't have any places where you could rest, that has been a game changer for me as well. I get some–I have chronic pain. When I walk or stand too long, my leg goes numb and it's not very comfortable or fun. But if I sit for a bit, then my body kind of regenerates and then we can go a little further.
I also say like, if you're going somewhere that might not have cell service, tell somebody where you go, and tell 'em when you think you'll be back. Make sure you check in with them. That's just a safety thing, you know; being aware of the wildlife you might encounter and what to do if you do have, like, if you do see a bear, like not everybody knows what to do. So just educating yourself on those little things.
For me, that's like my peace of mind. I'm kind of a over-preparer because I have anxiety and it makes me feel more comfortable to be far away in a wilderness area if I have all that kind of information fresh in my head.
SB: Well, absolutely. And it's done you well, and so many others, because your book dives into so many of these things. As you've been talking through this, it's just all these barriers that you've been trying to help, you know, nudge out of the way for people to just be immersed in nature.
Or, what I think was really powerful in your book, you were talking about understanding your own inner voice that comes out a lot in this. Like, what are my limits? Maybe I haven't been in a situation where I could see what does feel good or what doesn't feel good. And so, really appreciate you over-planning and then sharing that knowledge with everybody.
SM: Of course, I'm happy to share the knowledge.
CP: Summer, something that is just so cool about you and your life is that you live in a van! And I just, we'd love to know what's it like being fat and living the van life, and if you might have any suggestions for people who are interested in exploring that.
SM: I do live in a van! I've lived in several vans in fact (Laughs). It’s honestly like, I mean, I wrote a story about it in the book, and you can feel free to read that. It was like getting, you know–I always kind of dreamed about traveling and living out of a van for a long time. I was in an abusive relationship, and I needed a way to get out of that, so living in a van was my way out of that situation. And honestly, I don't know that I would've just gone for it had I not been leaving a really bad situation.
So that's sort of how it started for me, but really it became this thing that it's like, I get to, well–honestly, it's nice to not have to pay rent. That's a big thing. It's nice to be able to take my home with me wherever I go, to have all the comforts of my home. I have my bed, I have a little kitchen. I have my dresser with all my clothes, and that is really nice to me. I love that feeling, it feels really safe and comforting. But it's challenging also; obviously there's, you know, before we started recording this, we were talking about how I just recently got a flat tire, and like, a flat tire in a car if you live in a house or something, it's not as big of a deal, but like, this is my home. And now I can't move my home anywhere.
So there's challenges like that. But really, you know, being fat in van life is–I don't know how couples do it to be honest. When I was in a minivan, I would say it was a bit harder just like, maneuvering in the small space. I have a bigger van now, I have a Sprinter, and I can stand up in it and, you know, move around. I even do yoga in the van sometimes 'cuz I just have a lot of room. I also love a lot of clothes in my van. I do love my clothes, I probably have way more clothes than most people who live in a van. Clothes and books, those are the things I really love. I want them in my space. I wanna have variety.
It's fun. I think it's fun to travel around and see places I wanna see and meet new people. I started the van life driving across the country to the east coast, leading hikes and hoping, hoping to open more chapters of the Fat Girls Hiking. I didn't really know how to do that. I really wanted to start chapters, but I didn't know how to do it. I just really felt the strong desire to meet people in person who were gonna be ambassadors for Fat Girls Hiking. So that's sort of why I started traveling in a van. I really just fell in love with the freedom I felt doing it, and I just had so much joy, just being outside all the time and just being even more connected to the outdoors. Sometimes too, like, I stayed in a hotel on my book tour and I was like, “This is so fun. I'm just inside, (Cat and Saraya laugh) in a bed, with a TV and a shower, and a toilet with water that flushes–” all the little things. I think I might miss a little bit about when I used to live in an apartment, you know?
But I don't know, I'm pretty scrappy. I can kind of make any situation work and I'm really creative. So it's like, I think it really just keeps me creative and it keeps my creative juices flowing, to have the opportunity to go wherever I wanna go in my home. I'm just like a little turtle, you know, and it's fun.
It's really fun, but it is hard. I definitely got harassed by cops. I knew I wanted to, like, when I was doing the van life, I was like, “I wanna keep living in a van, but I wanna like, kind of be in a small town. Like I wanna like, try to live in a small town in my van.” So there were a couple of places on the Oregon coast that I wanted to live, and I tried out a couple of places, and cops in small towns, they’re very interesting, so that's a little bit stressful. I know a lot of people who live in vans have those similar encounters, so I try to stick to outside of urban areas for that reason.
But obviously small towns, you can run into that, but just having basic resources like a shower and having water; I have a big water tank that lives under my bed, and I have a kitchen sink and a countertop. But finding places to fill up my water tank can be a little–it was a little tricky during COVID when everything was shut down, but now I have a great place on some land where I park every night and it's really dreamy. I get to have a garden, but I still live in my van, and I kind of have more privacy ‘cuz I'm not like parking in public places. So I feel like I kind of found this sweet spot of van life where like having a place to park, but also being able to travel, you know?
CP: That's so cool.
SB: Sounds so dreamy. I think you hit on so much of this, but I guess, what else is bringing you joy?
SM: Oh boy. I have really found joy in gardening. I never thought I would be a gardener. (Laughs) I just, even though I love nature so much, I just never–I just always thought I was bad with plants and I had this narrative that I just told myself, if I had a plant that I would kill it. But then I had this Christmas cactus that I had for like 10 years or something before I killed it. I eventually killed it, but I still kept it alive for 10 years. That's in the van, also.
So that's bringing me so much joy, I don't know. It feels so like magical to have a tiny seed and put it in dirt and just give it some love and water and like–and then you have a beautiful flower, or a tomato, you know, and sometimes you don't, sometimes things don't grow. But I think it's really just like this, um, being in the present moment that gives me a lot of joy. Like waking up in the morning and go–I have this little greenhouse and like, opening the greenhouse doors and just being like, “What's, what's growing today?” That's like, that's a happy place for me for sure.
SB: Oh, that's beautiful. Oh, what a good answer.
CP: So other than your book, how and where can people find you and learn more about what you're up to?
SM: I am most active on Instagram, and it’s @FatGirlsHiking on Instagram. I am sometimes on Facebook. I will admit I'm pretty bad at Facebook, but it's also Fat Girls Hiking on Facebook. Um, there's a website, fatgirlshiking.com, and yeah. That's about it. Those are good places to see what we're up to. There’s Eventbrite, which has all of our events. Those are all kind of posted on the social media as well.
CP: And you're gonna be here soon!
SM: I am! I'm gonna be in Minnesota, my home state. I'm so excited.
CP: Yeah. Your book event is on August 1st, right?
SM August 1st at Magers & Quinn. I feel like I'm saying that wrong.
CP: I honestly go between, is it Majors? Is it Magers? We'll figure it out on the first. We'll figure it out when we're there. (Cat and Summer laugh)
SM: I love that bookstore though. I definitely went there a ton. I love indie bookstores, so I'm super excited too, that they're hosting the book event and Cat will be there. So that will be amazing too.
CP: I am so excited to be in conversation. I mean, like, this feels like a little bit of a warm up, right? We got to talk here. I can't wait to talk with you at the event. Oh, it's gonna be so great.
SM: I'm excited. Yeah. Thanks for, you know, being the conversation partner too. It's gonna be really fun.
SB: I'll be cheering you on from the crowd, just so you know.
SM: Thank you.
SB: I think it'll be so fun, and anybody who listens is definitely encouraged to come check it out, because I imagine you'll get into so much more detail and, and it's just been so delightful talking with you too, that I think people just wanna hear more. I want to hear more, so I'm looking forward to it.
SM: Thank you! Yay!
CP: Summer, thanks for telling your story–
Both: –As a matter of fat.
[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]
CP: Oh, what a great conversation with Summer!
SB: It was so much fun. And also just like, there is this energy that comes with talking to someone in our first interview of the season, so it was just delightful.
CP: Yeah. And so like we've gotten in the habit of, let's chat a little bit about the parts of our interview with Summer that stood out to us.
SB: Yeah. Where would you like to start?
CP: I mean, I just have a list of random, wonderful things. The first being: Weird Teens unite! (Laughs)
SB: Yeah. Y'all bonded over that.
CP: Oh my gosh. The way Summer described how they were when they were like in high school and they were younger just really resonated with me. There's something about–and I know you and I have talked a lot about this Saraya, and we didn't get into this in the interview–but just like, something about being a fat teen. For me, being a weird fat teen, like by me kind of dressing weird ways and being a little more alternative, I think gave me a way to stick out on my own terms. ‘Cuz I know it's gonna stick out anyway.
And I wonder if there's something there, perhaps that's not shared, but yeah, just like the way Summer talked about how they were as a younger person really felt like it was describing a lot of me.
SB: And I mean, I could extrapolate even further, or talk about just like, well, that freedom to just go and be whoever you want. Because I don't know–nobody else has–you don't see yourself in other ways too.
I thought that whole modeling story was so interesting and wild to me because, yeah, I don't know. Did that land with you at all?
CP: It did, and just how Summer shared that they have the realization that–and I hope I'm paraphrasing this correctly–but just that like, yeah, these beautiful teens also had a lot that they were going through and like, life wasn't always easy for them. And like, I think that as someone who's not like, you know, beauty standard scale-beautiful, or like is like a little bit larger–‘cuz the also resonated too, with Summer.
Like, “I look back at photos and I wasn't even that fat. I was just like a big person.” I hear that too for myself, a lot. But I think that, when we don't, when that isn't us, we think that that is like, folks who live that life who are like, you know, traditionally beautiful and thin have it so easy. And I think that a lot of fat people fall into the trap of thinking, “Oh, if I just change my body and make it smaller, everything will work out for me.” And so I appreciated them bringing that up.
And I've had that, I've noticed that too. I've actually had friends that have had very significant body changes and just seeing like, they're not happier. They're even more self-conscious than they were before. It's like been really, those are “aha”s that I've had as well, and so I thought that was really interesting to hear about from Summer.
SB: Truly, truly. Yeah. I think like we've tried to emphasize just the complexity of living when it comes down to it with this project and this podcast, but I think that is one resounding thing for me, which obviously was for you too, is just like: happiness is so individualized. And also, when it is within the confines of somebody else or like something else–like if it, if you're trying to meet a goal that you're not setting for yourself based on your own needs–will you ever achieve it? I just don't think that's the case, so yeah.
But okay. I'm getting a little too philosophical here. Let's bring it back in.
CP: Well ok, I have a philosophical thing to share too. (Both laugh)
SB: Let's get into it.
CP: Yeah. Which is: at some point Summer had mentioned that like, they hadn't experienced certain things specifically against them, but like, recognize that this was like part of–like, they still were influenced by antifat bias that surrounded them. And we talked for a second about this during the interview. Like, it's really just like part of the water we're all swimming in. Oh, reference from before (both laugh). But that really speaks to me.
It's like–and I think with lots of marginalized identities, the way systems of oppression work, it's like, even if you haven't experienced certain specific negative moments around your identity, we are all still living in this culture that thinks and speaks pejoratively of these identities, you know what I mean?
So it's like, even if I'm lucky enough to have not experienced something, I'm still influenced by the messaging that that's bad. That feels, I don't know, very big and vast, but something that I wanted to name.
SB: Yeah, it's so interesting. So we only had so much time to talk with Summer, but this is a fun story. So for Cat's birthday, we actually went to a bunch of independent bookstores, and one was in Uptown, it's Magers and Quinn. And I, we, I actually picked up Summer's book, and so I've been able to read it, and she does such a good job in it. She did a little bit of this in the interview as well; about getting really specific about experiences dealing with antifat bias, and then going more broad and then coming back in, and then going more broad.
And I just can–as someone who's really tried to do that for a long time, I can really appreciate it when people can talk high-level about the water that we're swimming in, and then also get into the very specific experiences of what that looks like. And so, she talks a lot about being a kid in Minnesota, and the presidential fitness test, and all of the many things that we have attempted to touch on throughout so many episodes of the podcast.
But I just, I guess for me, this is another more general thing. I just so appreciate when we get to talk with someone, especially like Summer, that moment of resonance where it's like, “Oh, me too.” Oh, that freedom of like finally realizing I can go outside. I can, you know, go do these hard things, or I'm not sure how this is gonna work, but I'm gonna go try this because it's better than the negativity that I'm dealing with right now; I think is just so important and powerful. And I don't know, I was just really moved by her talking about the inception of Fat Girls Hiking and like building up the chapters too, across the country.
CP: Yeah, there's a part of that that's like, very much “create what you wish existed” kind of idea, which is one of my favorite things. It really did feel, when Summer started posting stuff on Instagram, it was just them being like, “Okay, is anyone else doing this?” And that like, really organic growth of people wanting to join in, I think, shows that need and the desire from others to have that representation and that space for themselves as well. That was very cool to hear about in this interview, and then I know that Summer gets into it a lot more in the book as ell.
CP: Yeah.
CP: Which is, we have to share again–I feel like we talked about this in the interview–but Summer's gonna be here on August 1st, and actually, Summer and I are in conversation together at Magers & Quinn. Saraya, you're gonna come, right?
SB:m Yeah, dude!
CP: Yeah! So it'll be a little Matter of Fat–it won't be a Matter of Fat party, it is like, truly like a book tour that Summer is doing. But I think it'll be–
SB: I'll be the one, not like, like positively heckling, no, like cheering loudly and positive in the crowd.
CP: There should be a word for that, yeah, what is positive heckling–
SB: I don't know what it is.
CP: Vocally supporting? I dunno.
SB: Yeah. We'll, we'll work on it, yeah.
CP: Um, can we call it peckling? Positive heckling? (Saraya snorts) “There’s that peckler over there…” (Laughs)
SB: Sorry for that noise. Absolutely not.
CP: Yeah, I thought better of it.
SB: Can I talk about one more thing from the interview?
CP: Please do!
SB: I know that you were like talking about–yes. Please come to the event, y’all. It's gonna be great. Summer's book is wonderful. Um, but I will say, something that I really appreciated was when we were talking about just access to the outdoors and how, okay. So you were just mentioning this concept of like organic, organic building of, experience of just being outside and how that resonated with people to the point where, you know, so many chapters are built out now. I was just thinking about the capitalism of it all and how, like, I am susceptible to being sold this idea that I cannot go out into nature until I'm prepared. And the only way to be prepared is to buy and like, have certain things to be prepared. And it's just like, that's not true. That's never been true. Like, people have been out–and yes, you do wanna be safe. You wanna have water, you know, if you do need other things just to be safe for yourself, that's important.
CP: A raincoat, in case you're caught in the rain?
SB: Walking poles, perhaps?
CP: Oh my gosh. (Both laugh)
SB: I just really appreciated that like, grain of salt idea of like, yeah, REI is fine sometimes, these places are fine, but also are they actually building a space where anybody can go outside? And no, they’re not..
CP: No. Yeah. Well, ‘cuz that wouldn't make them money, you know? That's like, the space we're living in.
SB: Yep, yeah. So.
CP: That's a good point. Yeah. Well, I would like to say, I hope this is like an appropriate commercial, but like, more of this conversation on August 1st. Is that, could I say that? Could that be accurate?
SB: Is it, do you want it to be accurate?
CP: More of the kind of conversation we had with Summer? I think we’ll show up–
SB: –(Laughs) Yeah! You’re the one kinda moderating it, so you’re the only one who can answer that. (Cat laughs) I think so.
CP: I guess I'm like–what I mean to say is like, this is not a Matter of Fat event. Like I don't wanna like, co-opt. Like, it's a Magers & Quinn event. It's Summer's book tour. But I imagine our conversation there will sound a lot like our interview, actually.
SB: Yes, yes. If you will find yourself in the Twin Cities on August 1st, come on down for an intellectually stimulating and wonderful conversation between Summer and Cat, and just know that Saraya will be somewhere in the vicinity.
CP: Yep.
SB: Peckling. (Both laugh)
CP: Thank you for trying it out.
SB: It’s bad. It feels bad.
CP: I hate it, I hate it, but thank you for trying it out.
[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]
CP: It's time for the Dirt and Discourse. This is where we dive into the excitement and discomfort around relevant pop and cultural happenings. And that's all I got. (Laughs)
SB: I mean, that's all you need to say. So usually we ramp it up a little bit more. We already did that, we already did that earlier.
CP: We gave you a preview of what we're gonna talk about.
SB: The biggest teaser.
So we kind of wanna talk about how–dirty is the wrong way–it feels dirty to me, I should be really specific here–about like, being fat in groups, or like big public spaces. And that's only because of just the different levels of danger that I expect to feel when I go into those areas. Both for like my body size, my, my gender, my gender presentation, my skin color. But then also with this pandemic, I just don't think being in big groups of people at this point in time feels very safe to me at all.
Which is bizarre, because it is the summer in the Midwest, and so that is generally the time when lots of outdoor big events happen, but it just feels so unsafe right now. And, yeah. I don't know. I think that would be interesting for us to talk about.
CP: I agree, and this is really the difference we were getting at earlier between like, nature-outdoors and like, outside public spaces with people.
SB: Yeah.
CP: Yeah. I know, Saraya, you have more fears around this than I do. And I think, I–even saying that makes it feel like, dismissive, not at all intended that way. I think like your thoughts and fears around especially like, public spaces for some of the reasons you've shared with me already, make so much sense. But I know we feel a little different about this.
SB: Well, I, I think there's lots of reasons, right? Like different identities, um, different privileges. I am pretty privileged in being in outdoor spaces or other areas with people, but I think where I live has particularly put me on edge. And I'm not trying to build into the whole like, “Minneapolis is burning down, the crime rate is so big.” No, I disagree with that quite a bit.
Actually, I–actually, there's more crime going on everywhere outside of the Twin Cities than ever before, because people have been trying to live through a pandemic and are dealing with awful economic decisions and the most racial upheaval that we've experienced in recent history. So like, there's a lot of reasons for that. But I just feel like there's a lot of gun violence in my neighborhood, particularly like in my building. And–not particularly, but just recently. And so I–
CP: –But actually, literally, in your building.
SB: Yeah, yeah. And I think that puts me on edge, also, with the way that we have treated guns and talked about guns and the number of violent experiences that people encounter just going into their daily life now. I'm really mindful of that. Like, walking through the park right before pride, ‘cuz they were setting up the pride festival and I was just like, I don't know. One, pride festival is great, I don't know that I need to be in the park for all of it. There's too many people. There's too much stuff going on. But then also, if I'm hearing about all these other situations going out where people are shooting or being violent at these celebrations, it's like, “Oh, should I be here?”
CP: Right.
SB: And I hate that that has to be a thought in my mind. So, that's part of it.
CP: Yeah. I also know that you run a little more cautious generally, which I've always like really appreciated. I remember like, um, separate from more recent instances of gun violence happening around us, even at the shop. You're like, “So what are your safety measures?” And that's ‘cuz of you being a manager at Caribou, having like all of these, like, “So here's what we do. Here's how we leave. Here's how we exit. Here's how we lock. Here's what–” you know.
SB: Yeah.
CP: I remember your child care to me and I've been a lot more laissez-faire about it. Just like, “Oh yeah, I'm fine.” And I think sometimes I still feel like that, but I'll actually–like, for me, with my team, I feel a little bit, even more worried about them than I do about myself. Which like, what is that? I don't know. Let's–we need to unpack that, but–so it doesn't surprise me that those are like, you know, thoughts that are a little more like, front, top-of-mind for you than for me.
But I was sharing too, and I'm still, I feel like I'm a little bit processing this out loud, which maybe isn't the best way to do it. But when we were talking about this recently, and thinking about bringing it up for Dirt and Discourse, I was remembering like, I went to a concert a few weeks ago. It was very large, it was outside. I felt kind of nervous about the COVID of it all, but a little more, um, comfortable because it was outside.
There were so many people there, and overall it was a pretty good experience, but then when we were talking about this Saraya, I was thinking like, “Oh my God, I did not one time think, ‘What if someone shoots me here?’” That like, it didn't even cross my mind. I didn't once think, “Which way will I go?” Like, “Where are, where are the exits?” There's just like, a one way in, one way out situation. I had no–there was no safety plan in my head. And you know what? I was with Neno and I bet they, their brain is a little bit more like yours, Saraya. I bet they were thinking like, “Okay, here's the plan if shit goes down,” you know?
CP: Yeah. But what is it about me, and my life? I mean, I think it's probably like (sings) privilege, privilege, privilege. (Both laugh)
SB: I don't mean to be dismissive, but that's literally what’s running through my mind–and also thinking that like, you know, I don't think one is better than the other. Like yes, when it comes to surviving something, like, that's probably good to have a plan, but the constant worry that I carry around is probably not helping me live a better and more resilient life necessarily. And so, I'm a little jealous that I, that I don't, you know, NOT think of those things. Like, where are the exits?
What is the best way to get out of here? Who do I call? I don't know.
Also, I don't even know that. Who do you call? I don't have an answer for that. And I, I think a lot of people in this country don't have an answer for that.
CP: No, I don't have an answer for that. I think if I could, like, if I could create the perfect way of being, I think that like, a middle ground between where my head's at and where your head's at is where I'd like to be.
I think I would like, I think it would behoove me to be more thoughtful about safety, to your point. I don't think it's always good for us to be constantly worried about all the bad things that could happen, and also, it is not good to not even think about that stuff, you know? Like, that's not helpful or healthy either, in my opinion.
SB: Mmhmm. Aso, I would say the concert you went to, I would just not have been comfortable in that crowd to begin with.
CP: Yeah.
SB: So like, that's like–so, (laughing) do you wanna tell people what concert you saw?
CP: Yeah. Okay. I unfortunately really love the band Third Eye Blind, and I've seen them many times. I remember the first time I saw them, I was like, “Holy fuck. So many white people.” Like it was, it was shocking to me. But now I've been to so many concerts of theirs that it's sort of like, that's what I've come to expect. And I brought my boyfriend and they were like, “Oh my God. I feel like–” they literally said, “ Cat, I feel like we're at a Trump rally.” And I was like, “Excuse me. It is not that bad!” It is that direction, but not that bad.
But then it occurred to me, like, I forgot how put off–or like, off-putting–it was the first time I went to this concert to see this group. Also, we have a lot to unpack here too. Why am I seeing concerts with like, other fans that I don't feel like I identify with at all? There were a few–and there were, you know, when you're in a public space and you're like, “Oh, you look fat, you look queer, I like you,” you know. Like there were several people that I felt like, “Oh, maybe they're my people.” But for the most part, it was a lot of like 35- to 55-year-old folks that felt like they were from the rural suburbs in ways that I just don't feel like are my people, you know?
SB: That kind of assessment though, is what goes through my mind. So like, I was back at my parents' house and had to pop into the Walmart near them. Not a mask in sight, I tell you. Like, that's the other thing. It's like, wow, am I calling attention to myself by wearing a mask? Yes, absolutely. Am I calling attention to myself for not being white? Yes, absolutely, in this specific area. But then it's like, am I over-assessing what all these people think? And it just, it takes so much energy and so much time to figure out that risk assessment of what's going on, and so there's no easy answer.
And I think there is a real urgency to it. You know, people get hurt. People are getting hurt on a regular basis, whether it be from gun violence, COVID, like, there’s just–all of it.
CP: You're right. And it's exhausting and it's also like, not fair. Like, you shouldn't have to be thinking through all of those things as you enter into a rural Walmart, you know. Like that should not be–but it, it is like that, and it has been like that. And it's just so–
SB: It's not even the worst for me as it is for so many others, so yeah,
CP: That's true too. It's just a lot and yeah, this is a pretty like, real bummer of a Dirt and Discourse, but it is just like, the absolute accuracy of how we feel.
Um, yeah. And especially you, Saraya. And I think I'm just like really grateful that you spoke so openly about some of these concerns and thoughts you have around your personal safety in public spaces.
SB: For sure. I think it comes back to Summer's book in a way though, too. As much as we were talking about how much we, you know, we love being outside at the top of the episode, and how wonderful it is to just go be in nature; like, to engage in nature, you still have to be safe. You have to bring water. You have to, you know, have walking shoes. You have to have accommodations so that you can engage with it in a way that doesn't drain you or put you in harm's way necessarily.
But you also can't account for everything else that you're going to come across. And so I think, you know, planning for a rainstorm is a little bit different than planning for, you know, people not taking the pandemic seriously.
CP: Or like, a mass shooting.
SB: (Sighs) Yeah, yeah. I think it's easier, and so in some ways, for me, it's easier to be alone or with very few people in nature than it is to try and engage in these big social environments. Like the State Fair is coming up, and part of me is like, “Well, I haven't been in a long time and it might be really fun.” And then a part of me is like, “Well, the very real reasons I haven't gone are because like, people are chaotic and in pain and treating each other in really wild ways.” So I don't know. I don't know, dude.
CP: Yeah, no, I don't either.
SB: Um, I also do wanna talk about how–I think this is what you were probably just gonna bring up–but I sent you a TikTok the other day? (Laughs)
CP: I knew it. We have one sort of sad, funny thing to bring up in this Dirt and Discourse.
SB: Wait wait wait wait, lemme go back for one second though.
I think another reason that I'm so on high alert is ‘cuz I paid attention to Criminal Minds in a way that you didn't. (Laughs)
CP: That's true.
SB: It’s all fictional. But Cat–
CP: –As you stated, the writers of the show said that real life is worse than we, they could have ever written about on the show. So, there's that.
SB: Yeah. I took that to heart. Why did I listen to those things? I don't know. But one thing that you brought to light whenever we talked about Criminal Minds or things like that, actually you should, it should come from your own words.
CP: Sure. Okay. So like, you watch Criminal Minds, there are zero victims that are fat. So like, there's a few fat perpetrators. There's a few fat, like, sideline characters, but there's no fat victims. So if you were–
SB: –Wait, main victims. ‘Cuz there's the wife of the criminal.
CP: Right, right, right, right. Oh, that got hit by a car. I would count her as a side character, but you're right. Yes. I guess like, the main people that like, get shown up on the board, you know, and that's how it is for most of these crime dramas. And if you were to watch TV, you'd think that not one fat person ever was the victim of any of these crimes, which has to be a lie, right?
But I wonder like, how many people actually are, like how many large people actually are like kidnapped or hurt or harmed. I'm sure it's a lot, right? But like, where are the numbers on it? I also have shared before that in terms of my personal safety, I always thought about my body size as being an asset. Like, I feel like I am less likely to be overpowered by someone because of my size, and then I think about those really off-putting signs and like, marketing tactics, people say, which is like, “Fat people get kidnapped less, so eat here, gain some weight,” or some bullshit like that, you know?
SB: Yeah.
CP: So this is a conversation we've had time and time again, on and off the pod, but then Saraya comes through my DMs with a perfectly curated moment of TikTok sharing.
SB: (Laughs) It's all full circle!
CP It really is. This episode really is coming together in lots of ways. Tell them, Saraya, what this TikTok said.
SB: This person is–and I don't agree with this sentiment, but it was too perfect to not send to Cat–but basically this person says that if you're a big girl and you're pretty, don't think that you won't get kidnapped, you just gotta watch out when someone comes along with a dolly. And I, died.
CP: Like I, it was not like, not okay, not appropriate, but did make me giggle a little. And also like–
SB: –Stay vigilant, Cat!
CP: The dollies! If I see a dolly approaching, I'll take cover. (Laughs) Goddamn.
SB: Like don't wanna make light of horrifying situations, but it just really fed into my paranoia. (Laughs) And the fact that somebody out there created a TikTok and posted it warning people that they will get kidnapped, even if they're fat is wild.
CP: I mean, it's a joke. This person heard somebody say “I'm not gonna get kidnapped, I'm fat,” and was like, “Well, but you're pretty. So let me make this thing,” you know.
In closing, um, I still have done no research on the amount of people in larger bodies who are like, victims of crimes, especially like kidnapping and stuff, but I still would be interested in doing that. So if you have any hot leads on articles or reports–
SB: –What?!
CP: –To the, I'm telling the people! I'm just saying, if you happen to have read an article on this that you think I'd enjoy, please send it my way. ‘Cuz I've talked about this for like, two years, and I haven't–I've done like, a really quick little search and I haven't found much, and I know I have to dive a little deeper. So if you have information on like, crime statistics related to body size, send them, send them our way.
SB: We gotta pack out the Cat science library. Social science library.
CP: Yes. We need to, and then maybe I'll make do with more relevant, true information.
SB: Stitch it with that dude. (Both laugh)
CP: “Excuse me, sir!”
Okay, we gotta wrap this up.
SB: Well, we've come to the end.
CP: And what would be more fitting to close this than a song?
SB: (Scoffs) I mean, anything else. I'm not singing. But like, if you must.
CP: But this is just so perfect. The (singing) happy trails to you, until we meet again.
Right? Right?!
SB: Yes, yes.
CP: We’ve really had a lot of interrelated things happening in this episode, in spite of it's massive length.
SB: Yeah. You think it's chaotic, but there was a plan along.
Thank you for singing that, much better than my voice and yes y'all, until we meet again!
CP: If you want more from us, you know where to go: find us on Instagram @matteroffatpod; or on our website at www.matteroffatpod.com. On our website you'll find show notes, transcripts, information about Matter of Fat, links to all of our social media, access to older episodes, and more.
SB: Yes, including info about our fat cash. So if you love the pod and want to send some monetary support our way, just get into that fat cash. We're on Venmo at @Matteroffatpod, and you can find more info about fat cash on our website.
CP: No shoutouts for fat cash or Apple reviews this episode, but we would love to share your name right here in two weeks if you're able to support us in either of those ways.
SB: Never expected, but always appreciated.
CP: Yeah. Hey, one more final reminder–how many times have I shared this?--about Summer's book event at Magers & Quinn? Catch me and Summer in conversation on Monday, August 1st. You have to RSVP to the event; it's free, but you have to RSVP. We'll share that link in our shownotes.
Oh, and I would love to see all of you at our Cake Plus Size Resale Fat Beach Days on July 31st or August 21st.
SB: Yeah! So till next time when we're back for more conversation, as–
Both: –A Matter of Fat.
[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]
SB: Uh, (singing)–I can do it, I can do it–
CP: (Singing) It’s recording, the singing~
SB: I will not put that in there.
CP: (Singing) Will you, maybe? (Laughs)
SB: No. Absolutely not.