S4E4 - Kandace Montgomery, Mind Shifting Moments, + Fat Liberation Month - Transcript

Released on May 26th, 2021. For complete episode info, visit this page!

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Cat Polivoda: Welcome to Matter of Fat, a body positive podcast with Midwest sensibilities. Hi, I'm Cat Polivoda, a local fat feminist shop owner, and am excited to wish you a very happy Fat Liberation Month. I'm joined by my co-host and producer Saraya Boghani. 

Saraya Boghani: Hi, I'm Saraya, I'm a fat multiracial Minneapolitan millennial, who recognizes that we're late into the fat liberation month game, but look forward to celebrating this in many more years to come.

CP: Yes! In addition to celebrating fat liberation month on Matter of Fat, we're here to talk about the cultural politics of fat liberation with a Midwest perspective. 

SB: So what does that all entail this episode? Well, we're gonna talk about what things have helped to radicalize Cat and myself.

CP: In our interview, we'll also get to hear from Kandace Montgomery, co-executive director of Black Visions, a really powerful local nonprofit.

SB: And we'll talk more about the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance’s inaugural Fat Liberation Month, all a—

CP + SB: —A Matter of Fat!

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CP: As part of our conversation with Kandace, we were kind of reflecting on what radicalized us or, you know, and by that we mean like, what are things that we've learned or experienced throughout life that have made us question the status quo and adopt ideologies that get us closer to what we hope is collective liberation. There's a lot to discuss, you know?

SB: There's a lot to discuss. And also this is a kind of a riff off of the youth, right? Like I've seen a lot of, I don't know if it's all youth, but on Twitter or on Tik Tok, people would be like, “Oh, this is what radicalized me.” And so I thought it was poignant for us to talk about, you know, fat liberation, which is pretty radical, um, to integrate that into our backstories. What got us to this point, and obviously that's a whole lifetime, so we can't really capture all of that, yeah. 

CP: We can't get into it all, but I think we both have some like, kind of, not quite necessarily quick hits, but like a series of things that we can, can remember as like moments we were, we were made to question what we believed in.

SB: Yeah. And I'd be curious to hear from you all, whether that be, um, you know, at a future Podluck or on social media, Facebook Friends and Fans, Facebook group. Whoa, me plugging? Not me plugging—

CP: Wow, you're plugging it all. Who is she, she's new? 

SB: Um, this vaccine really had an impact, I guess. Um, but I would love to hear that because I think what we understand is when you look back in hindsight, you can see, oh, wow, that had a profound impact on who I am and where I am and what my beliefs are now.

So for me, historically, I guess I grew up in a suburb west of the Twin Cities and it was a very colorblind middle-class homophobic environments. If I just look back at some of the highlights of it—I mean, white. Um, and so. You know, the things that I learned, I did learn a lot. I had a really good educational background because education was important and got a lot of funding, but it's like, what kind of education did I receive? I learned about, you know, the U.S.’s history from a very specific perspective and it was taught by white folks.

And so regardless of them trying to provide different stories or trying to provide different insights into, you know, the US's history of colonialism and imperialism, it wasn't ever put in that framework. So I learned about internment camps. I learned about slavery. I learned about civil rights, but it always felt like it was part of the past and not really connected to who I was or my classmates or my community. 

Looking back, it's, it's hard to piece out what were the cultural indicators of where I grew up. Um, and like, how did I start to recognize that? It's still something I'm doing now. Um, but I guess. Yeah, I don't know. I didn't really start getting into an idea of what that was until college. And that's when I met Cat. So I'm gonna, I'm gonna, before I dive into that, I'm going to let Cat share a little bit about her background.

CP: You know, Saraya, you described kind of your kind of, especially school system setting when you are young. I think for me it was, it was similar in a lot of ways. Um, I'm from small-town Minnesota, and while I had a great experience, like overall, when I was younger, I just, I don't really remember learning a whole lot of things that made me question the status quo.

And, you know, you mentioned like you learned about Japanese internment and, um, things like that. I don't ever remember learning that stuff. Perhaps it happened, like perhaps there was a little paragraph in one of our books about it, but I don't recall, um, for me, similar to where you're going here, I think a lot of that learning and growth happened in college and there's just like a lot of things. And I was like, “Whoa, that's a lot.”

I will say for me, a bit of—another way I think that I sort of grew into more radical ideologies, um, relates to religion. Uh, when I was younger. So like first grade through seventh grade, I went to a religious school, um, which was just not a good experience for me. Um, I think it did more harm than good in a lot of ways. I think religion does a lot more harm than good in a lot of ways. Uh, but that is clearly influenced by my experience there. And I have this when I was reflecting on answers for this, or like, thinking about these moments. There's one thing that happened when I was in grade school that I just have come back to time and time and time again, um, related to how messed up um, I think that the structures that relate to religion can be for us and thus like translate to power.

I remember we were in a class and it was perhaps a teacher or maybe the pastor talking and the worst I'm going to heaven and how, like, you know, it's imperative for everyone to like, hear the word of God. And I remember we were, you know, we're kids, like we're making up all these scenarios. Like, ”Okay, well, if like a kid is born in like a different country, like never has the opportunity to like, hear the word of God, and then like tragically, that child dies when they're young, before they ever had the opportunity to hear God's word, are they going to go to hell?”

And I remember that teacher being like, “Yeah, they're not going to go to heaven.” And I, in that moment I was like, okay, something doesn't feel right here. Like this is, I hear what you're saying, but like in my gut, this feels very wrong. Um, and it's that kind of feeling of, like, “you're saying these things, uh, that doesn't, that doesn't feel right for me,” um, that I kind of connect to moments of diverging from like what the, what I was taught to believe, you know?

SB: Mhmm, I think it's so hard for youth to figure that out, right? Like if you're not taught to have those critical thinking skills, I mean, you're developing a lot of other skills at that time too, but I feel that's interesting that you got to have that on your own. Maybe like not in an environment that fostered it. I will give a big old shout out to Girl Scouts. 

CP: Oh yeah!

SB:  That was a pretty remarkable space to be just like with girls and women who were competent and capable. I think that was a huge basis for my own self-esteem or interest in doing anything and everything. But that is actually the first place that I recall—so, okay. Just, I said homophobic earlier, like peak middle school and high school, like everything. I just remember everybody calling things gay. 

CP: Oh my gosh, yup.

SB: It was bad! It was real bad. Um, and you know, I heard it, I didn't use that language myself, but Girl Scouts was the first time that we talked about it.

And we said like, “Okay, when you hear people say that, what does that mean?” And I was like, “Oh, it means something bad.” And they were like, “Is it actually a bad thing?” And I was like, “Oh no, it's not,” but like not having that prompted reflection, I don't know that I would have questioned it. I would have just kept going along. And so I think like what you brought up that divergent thought, you needing to have environments or things that prompt that for you now, you had a really good, strong, moral compass.

CP: I guess, there are lots of things that I was happy to go along with. You know, I just like, that was one moment that wasn't that way. But to your point, yeah. It's like, we want, like, if we can be in an environments that foster that critical thinking, um, there's just like so much, I don't know. So much more thoughts, so many more thoughts to have and so much growth to happen, and I think for both of us that happened in college. 

SB: Yeah, absolutely. What, uh, I think for me, meeting new people, hearing new stories and like understanding that just education itself isn't the same for everyone was, was really transformative for me. And, you know, being able, because before, like I said, I had heard all these stories—I could read books, uh, about anything; I could, you know, listen or see shows. But until I actually knew people that shared some of those identities and understand how the world worked for them, like it just, it didn't land for me for some reason.

CP: I totally identify with that. I think for me, being able to be friends with—in some instances close friends with—and also like coworkers with people who had different specifically like racial backgrounds than I did was really transformative. And like, I think one of the, one of the worst qualities about white people, um—I will speak generally and also speak for myself because this is something that I embodied and probably still do—um, is that like, we can learn about things, but like, for me, when people, when I was young, um, when people would say, “Oh yeah, like I didn't get this job because of my race,” or “I, this thing happened to me, I'm sure it's because I'm Black.”

And my first inclination is to be like, “No, that's not the whole story. There has to be more there. I don't, you, you must not be understanding that—” what the fuck? Like, what is it about us, about me where I couldn't just like, accept that for the reality that it was and had, like, I witnessed those things on myself, um, in order to, to believe them.

Like, I remember the first time, uh, I noticed like we were at, it was a work like supply gathering outing, and there's a couple of us in the Target checkout. Um, and the lady in front of us, when my Black coworker like walked past her cart, like grabbed her purse. And I was just like, incensed, like, “Oh my gosh, how could this be?”

And my coworkers like, “Yeah, it happens all the time,” you know, and it's not as if I never heard that that happened before, but it like took me being there to witness it for, to like hit me. Um, and to really, like, I don't know, think about it more. And I regret all the moments where folks have shared things with me and then I haven't taken it for face value right there and believed them, but instead had to like, think more about it before I could get to that place. But I think for a lot of us, it's like, until we are around those situations, like it's things feel very abstract, and then like seeing it in, in real life has more of an emotional impact  

SB: And even those abstractions are important too. I think like the nuance of language has always been something that's helped me to understand the world. And so I directly remember being in a class where a professor told me that like, “Okay, if you are oppressed like, like if you, for instance, are a Black person, you can not be racist, because the whole system of racism is used to oppress you. Now you can be prejudiced, but you can't be racist.” For some reason that shook me. I was like, what? I know, I know people who are like, you know, racist, and then it's like, no, no, no Saraya. Like, you hear these terms and you think about how they're applied to the individual and individual behaviors, but until you can understand that these individual behaviors are symptomatic or reflective of a cultural system, um, like. it, it, it, I don't know, it like opened my eyes. I know I've used this before, but like when I was learning to read as a kid, you know, you're in the car, you're going past all these billboards, and until you understand how to read, you're like, oh, there's just some pictures up there. I don't really know what's going on.

But then as soon as you can read it, like y'all have been communicating this whole time, and I had no idea? like once my eyes were open to that. And I think what was really astonishing too, is that I was never really prepared for it. Um, I would go to these conferences or activities just because I like to be involved in things.

And, uh, I remember there was an NCORE Mini Conference Hamline that talked about microaggressions. I was just like, I knew there are aggressions. I know there were microaggressions. No, not at all. And then let alone microaggressions, but microaggressions that impact people's health and like longevity and livelihood.

And I was like, “Oh my god.” Like, oh, it all makes sense. It all clicks right now. And being able to hear that from people who have lived experiences, who researched it was like, wow, there's just so much in this world that I don't know. But now that I know that, I can't unsee it. And so I would say those instances really helped radicalize me of like waking up to the status quo.

There was also, I do wanna reference back in 2010, the U of M hosted a conference about called From Vices to Versus, which was a hip hop conference. And I was, I was very into hip hop at the time, had a radio show and everything—surprise, radio show to podcast, here we are—um, but there was a session I went to that was hosted by Dereca Blackmon and it was about intergenerational trauma, and it blew my mind just to talk about violence and how that gets perpetuated and family systems specifically like Black families.

Uh, it was just like, oh, of course, of course this all came together. Of course, this is the way the world works. And like, how do we fix that? How do we support people who are dealing with it? But it's just like, I don't know, it's—once you learn that, how can you go back? I got it. Yeah. 

CP: It's like once, like you can, you see things through the lenses, it's like hard to take those lenses off or like, it is like an active work to do it. And that feels shitty, you know?

I think I just so much of what you've shared, I also feel like resonates with things that have radicalized me and especially like, um, the idea of learning the difference between like, what's like interpersonal or personal versus what is like systemic and larger and societal. And an example of this that like, I think is really simple, but so always like, you know, it is something I come back to:

Um, I know so many people who, when they think about like sexism or like women not having a fair shake at things, they’re like, “That's so silly. I have grown up with strong women, my whole life. My whole family is full of strong women. Like I don't think women—I've never been taught that women are less than an, any aspect of my life.” Um, and that was like really beautiful and lovely, but it's also very personal. So it's like when, when folks are like, “Oh, sexism, is that a thing, here's all the stuff about me and my family history,” it's like, well, that is awesome. And also like, look at who our elected officials are. Like, look at power in our country and our world, but just take the country. And, and how many, you know, we using women as this example, like how many women do we have in in political office? How many women do we have owning the largest of the businesses with the most wealth, you know? Um, and so it's just that difference between like what you've experienced personally versus what the big picture in our society is. That's always, I think something powerful for me.

And Saraya I am so glad you mentioned NCORE. So for folks who don't know, NCORE is the National Conference on Race and Ethnicity in Higher Education. And Hamline, where Saraya and I both went to college for a long time, had a commitment to having a team of students and staff and faculty that would go to NCORE. And then the following year they'd be like the NCORE team and put on programming on campus related to racial justice.

And I was on an NCORE team one year, um, and helped like kind of put on some of this programming, but it was just teally cool to be able to approach topics from a racial justice lens and like bring that, um, you know, kind of home to campus. And also Hamline did something that doesn't exist anymore, um, they called it HUCORE.

The folks that went to this like national conference, like, you know, did the things like the mini conference on microaggressions that you're talking about, but, um, HUCORE it dissipated by the time I left Hamline, so I just think there wasn't funding for it. But, and it was pretty radical. It was like a retreat for a long weekend. And it was, they like, you did applications like a really diverse group of students. And the whole retreat was just like tackling race and racism. 

And there were moments where we'd be like in affinity groups. So it was just like all the white people, um, talking about like, you know, are learning together in a way to, um, you know, get through some of these topics without like, without having to be educated by, um, by others.

And I remember there was a moment and one of these, um, HUCORE weekends where like, I, it was my first year of college and I didn't know what was going on. Um, and I just like set a lot of like really problematic stuff and people called me on it and it felt just like, oh my gosh, it was one of the first times it was like anyone had ever like pushed back at me for saying things, you know, that I thought were just totally fine and warrant.

Um, and it was just such a powerful learning opportunity for me. And not everyone learns that way. I think some people like there's just like a, you know, that like the winds knocked out of you feeling like, oh my gosh, like I really messed this up. Um, and I think sometimes that can be helpful for us to move through and move from.

And I think sometimes that's just like, um, can be debilitating for people. So, you know, there's like different ways that works, but that was, I think those..that retreat and the things that happened there were really powerful for me and something else we did. So I'm going on and on about this, but, um, there's this PBS documentary series called Race, the Power of an Illusion.

And that I think is the most fun for me has been one of the most fundamental, like pull back the curtain about race in America, kind of, um, educational things from that I've ever interacted with. Um, and I would just like real it's old now. Um, but also I would just have really highly recommend that documentary series.

SB: Yeah, no, that's a good call. I remember that being interjected into classes and you know, other programming that was happening and I can't, I can't reiterate this enough, like a lot of what woke me up. Wasn't my actual coursework. It was the effort and interest of other people bringing in education, telling their stories, like making it accessible and that's still not accessible.

That was still through a private institution of higher education. Um, and so I guess I love Tik Tok. I don't, I'm not on Tik ToK, but I love the internet. It's a scary place, but also because that has allowed a little bit more accessibility into people, sharing their stories, sharing what's happening, um, widely and quickly.

And. I think that gets me to like current day status of like things that are currently radicalizing me, which is obviously where we live. Right? Like the Twin Cities has been like the center of contentious and very important, uh, uh, debates, policy actions, uh, of just like the future of public safety. Um, just there's a lot of ways we could phrase this, I guess, but one thing that I would like to just plug today is something called Minnesota HEALS.

CP: Yeah. You were just mentioning this, tell the people!

SB: I just found out about it today. I just learned about it today. So I'm still like doing more and more research, but I think this is going to be something that I focus a lot of effort on, uh, probably through an Instagram story session coming up in the next coming weeks, but basically.

Minnesota HEALS is part of Governor Tim Walz’s proposed Department of Public Safety budget. And so it's going to provide ongoing funding and services to three specific areas, support for families of victims of officer involved deaths, community healing after traumatic event and wellness services for first responders.

And, you know, this is not going to change the fact that people are being killed, um, because of routine traffic, well, not routine traffic stops. Um, but you know, it's not fixing the way that our criminal justice system or public safety system works right now, but it is an innovative program to support those who are dramatically and directly impacted by it, that doesn't exist elsewhere.

So, um, yeah, Minnesota HEALS, we'll link it out in the show notes. My ask and something that I will be doing is contacting my representatives about this, because this is just one facet of how we can reimagine public safety and something that can be directly important and helpful. And so I would encourage you listening right now, if you are in Minnesota to, um, you know, reach out to your representatives to say, this is important to me. This is important to our community. Please support this.

CP: Of course, link this in the show notes. Um, I'm also eager to look more into this name, so happy you shared it with me and with us today, Saraya. Um, I guess something I want to talk about though, that's currently radicalizing you.

SB: This is directly related. So the other day I was, uh, what will as watching Instagram Reels, because I don't have a Tik Tok account cause I'm old. Um, but it was basically, you know how the premise is like, “Tell me you’re blank without, you know, saying you’re blank.” And this, this one kid was like, tell me you're a police officer's child without telling me your police officer's child. I'll go first. 

And he started to talk about something really quite intriguing that I had never heard about. And it was this card it's called a PBA card. Um, and it might be, I don't know, it might be a different title, um, depending on where you live in the world or in the U S I should say, but it's basically like a Patrolmen's Benevolence Association, some association related to the police force.

And you can get these cards that are like little plastic laminated cards that say you are connected with a specific officer. And if you get pulled over, um, because you're speeding, light out, just, you know, any type of like minor traffic violation, you can include that when you hand over your, uh, ID to an officer and depending on how that officer feels or how they know that officer that's listed on your card, you might feel told to have a good day and you can keep moving along and get out without getting a ticket or other violations.

CP: I had never heard about this until you brought it up and it just feels like a literal get out of jail free card. You know? 

SB: Yeah, it was weird. Cause I did a little bit of research on it and I think it's different depending on where you are, depending on if that police officer who pulls you over, you know, knows the person that you are connected with, obviously like what you were doing, determines like how they react to that.

But it feels particularly gross just knowing what has happened in our community of like, and also that, like right now, there's the Minnesota tab renewal fund going on, basically trying to give BIPOC folks, um, funds to get their tabs renewed. So there is no reason for officers to pull them over because we know the bad effects that happen when people are pulled over in their cars, specifically, Black people, specifically People of Color, Indigenous folks.

So like, there's this literal card that helps you carry on and get out of a ticket when people are being shot. Um, and I'm radicalized by that. It makes me mad. You can also find these cards on eBay. Uh, I looked that up that's wild. So you can go ahead and buy it. And there's different versions of these cards too, that like, some of them are a little bit more thicker and like more well-made and that's one that you keep and that you can keep with you and use in multiple instances.

Some of them are like pretty, um, poor quality and it's just like a one and done use of the officer can take with them. And so I don't know, my, my mind is blown with this revelation. So that is what is rattling. Yeah. 

CP: I mean, me too, now that I know about this, thank you for sharing. Uh, it's just like, I think this is not a specific thing, but, um, a concept that underpins this and just like, honestly, everything that I've been thinking about lately is how just like power privilege money, how like, folks in power, want to keep their power, um, in every, in every capacity, right? Like in roles like law enforcement in roles, as in like folks who work and political power, people have money, people who are, you know, running businesses, large corporations, like folks want that power and privilege and money that comes with it.

And I feel like are just so open to doing things that they have to know are wrong in order to get it. You know, I was talking to a friend recently, um, and we were talking about how, like, when we were in college, we really thought that people just like needed to know more information. Like people just like needed the full story.

And like, if you know more information you might, your heart and mind might change and you'll conduct yourself accordingly. And I think we thought that cause that's how we were. It's like, oh my god, when I know more like how could I have ever done this or that before? And now that I have this information. I'm going to change the way I operate. 

Um, but it's just really disheartening to, to witness that for a lot of folks out here, it's not a lack of information. Um, it, they know what's happening and they're still making decisions that uphold their power and, you know, protect them and their families, um, and not the most marginalized and vulnerable among us.

Um, and that's scary. And I don't like it. One like maybe shift I'm trying to make in my mind related to that is, you know, info can be powerful. It's obviously not swaying a lot of folks, but I think that it's about the feelings and about like how you tell the story. Um, and part of that goes back to what we experienced when we were in college of like, when you, develop relationships with people that are directly impacted by some of those decisions that you might make more frequently, where you not exposed to folks in those walks of life. Um, if we hadn't had that, we might be operating in a different way. And so I'm wondering, I'm wondering if that's part of it too. I don't know I'm going on and on, but, um, suffice to say I'm radicalized. All all the time, because people are just awful. 

SB: (Saraya laughs) And also we love people. It's like the whole purpose of this podcast is to hear people's stories. So it's a, it's complicated. It's very fraught. 

CP: So nuanced. Um, yeah, it's complicated.

SB: Well, maybe we should get into our next interview.

CP: Yeah.

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SB: So we are very excited to share our interview with Kandace Montgomery, who's an activist within the Twin Cities, uh, and so much more. There's a lot that we cover in this conversation. And just so you know, you'll hear Kandace refer to Black Visions. So we want to share a little bit more about what that is up top.

CP: Yeah. Her organization, Black Visions Collective says they believe in a future where all Black people have autonomy. Safety is community-led and we are in right relationship with our ecosystems. 

SB: And you've probably heard about black visions with, um, all the activism that they've been doing in the work they've been doing in the Twin Cities. And so, yeah, there's so much, there's so much to talk about Cat and I will do a little bit of a debrief after it, but I'm going to stop talking so we can hear from Kandace.

CP: Enjoy!

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CP: Thank you so much for being with us on Matter of Fat!

Kandace Montgomery: Thank you for having me. It's a privilege to be here. 

CP: Well, we're going to start out with a question. We ask everyone Kandace, what's your story as a Matter of Fat? 

KM: Um, thank you. I really love this question. And when I got to check it out, it was the one that stood out to me, of course, the most. Um, and I really like it because it, I really had to think about it. Um, and especially think about the ways that like, you know, as a person who is an organizer, um, and a community leader, like how does, um, my story, my existence, um, as a fat person, like impact the work that I do. And, um, it was really special because the story that came up for me was, um, during my senior year of college, When I, you know, was just like in that place where I had some extra time, cause I was I'm am and always, probably will be a fucking overachiever.

And so, you know, I'm just like looking for places and spaces to, to be in. Um, and this is also after three years of like progressively kind of like getting more radicalized, you know, like for y'all and for viewers, I grew up in rural Maine for a big chunk of my life. I was born in Southern Florida, grew up in rural Maine escaped to college at and, um, had just, you know, had my mind blown, um, to all of the ways that the world works.

And so anyways, fast forward to my senior year again, I was just looking for things to do. Um, and I stumbled on this program. Well, I'd seen it a couple of times and I went to the performance, but this program called Body Politics, which. Specifically was bringing together women of color. Um, and we met weekly and every week we would do like conversations that we would then like write and reflect on.

And throughout the semester builds, um, a show for the student body. And of course like our family and friends, um, and Body Politics was just really about speaking from our experiences, um, as women of color. Um, and I just say that because I think that at that time, like so much of, um, loving who I am as a Black woman also comes with like loving my body.

Um, you know, growing up in a very white community, I always like, even when I wasn't really overweight, I felt really big. Um, and I felt really judged, um, because a lot of like the white, skinny bitches around me, you know, were just genetically or whatever, um, significantly smaller. And I come from a line of big boned women, um, period, you know, with chess and booty and hips, um, all of those things.

Um, and so, you know, I think that like part of my, um, loving of my body was like this, this sort of joint experience of, um, loving my body as a Black woman as an, as a fat Black woman. Um, so I don't know that that's the story that came up thinking about that question. And that was such a big moment for me.

Um, in college, because I was just really unapologetically in front of a lot of people talking about my experience in my body. Um, you know, and like that was one of the first times, especially that I really started to push up against, um, what folks like wanted me to say or being the like nice, um, you know, light-skinned Black person that didn't ever say anything confrontational.

Um, you know, so I think that like coming into my body was also me coming into that, that spirit. Um, so yeah, I guess that's my, my story as a Matter of Fat. 

SB: Wonderful. Thank you. Uh, you know, we've heard that from other guests too, that it's not just one thing of realizing your fatness or your identity, other identities that come together, it's a confluence of that.

And so I'm kind of curious, you know, we're here based in the Twin Cities, what's it like being an activist and community leader in the Twin Cities, especially knowing, you know, you didn't grow up in this space and yet are such an integral part of it now. 

KM: Hmm. Yeah. I mean, um, you know, I love Minneapolis and Minnesota so much, um, you know, I've lived here eight, almost nine years now. And like, I just really feel like because of the, um, the community organizing the activists, um, community here is like the reason I stayed, especially when it got to be negative 40 degrees out. Um, and, um, yeah, so like first I think that I just have a lot of love for us. I see, um, the ways that we are doing things and, and experimenting and holding a lot of community, um, needs at the same time.

Um, and the Midwest is slept on in general. Um, and so like, I think that I just always hold a lot of pride, um, for, for living in the Twin Cities, for calling this place home. Um, and you know, it's, it's hard like, um, this last week with the murder of Daunte Wright. Um, my heart, you know, just continues to be broken, like everybody else's, but I also feel, especially this time around just a deep, deep level of sadness, um, is what I've been reflecting on in the ways that we are so good. At responding, you know, like there's some things that I just like don't in our future, the way I vision it. I don't vision us being excellent at responding to the murder at the hands of police. Um, and you know, my experience here is that we are really good at it. And when I say that it's, you know, obviously to lift up the beauty that's happening, that instantly people are thinking about providing mutual aid.

Okay, boom. You know, stores are going to be boarded up in this, this place, Brooklyn Center, that's already a food desert. How do we make sure that community members are getting fed or, you know, the first night cops are tear gassing protesters and that tear gas is leaking into the homes of children. I talked to a woman who has two year old twins lives right in the front, you know, apartments there. In Brooklyn Center across from the police department. 

Um, but community members were figuring out ways to relocate folks. And then on top of the protesting and then on top of the supporting of the family and all of these things that were happening, like, you know, that's beautiful that we're able to do that.

And I have a lot of sadness that I think grows a lot of anger, um, that we have to continue to do that. So I think that the existence of being an organizer in the Twin Cities is one of having an immense amount of pride, um, and love for the work and the ways that we are trying to do things. Um, and, um, I think uh, tiredness and exhaustion of how hard and how much we have to fight, you know, like it shouldn't slip on people that Minnesota is ranked one of the very lowest places for Black people to live in the entire country. Um, while we sit beside, you know, suburbs like Edina and wherever, um, that have like excellent access to all the things that people's basic needs are, you know, so yeah. 

CP: You know, something we've discussed on our podcast is how anti-fat bias can show up in spaces that otherwise, like seem pretty progressive or inclusive fatphobia is so baked into our culture, that it often feels like it shows up even with folks that are like, you know, trying to do the best they can or have the best intentions. And we're wondering, is this something you've experienced and how does, or doesn't anti-fat bias look in the work that you do or have done. 

KM: Hmm. Ooh, yes, child. Um, I'm so glad we're asking this question. Um, you know, like I think that, and shout out to all of the like fat organizers, cultural creators folks who are just doing the thing that have really just like shifted the conversation in so many ways, you know?

Um, like now we never ordered t-shirts with actually having like big sizes, you know, like that I feel like is an achievement in the last, like 12 years of my organizing is, you know, I remember it'd be like so many smalls and like, people are 2X, 3X, 4X, like come on. Um, but like for real though, um, I think the way that I really see it is, um, who are the people that we deem as, um, suitable for certain roles. Um, and how do we default to those people because of those roles. 

And oftentimes I see it for myself and for other fat people in the movement that we're often defaulted as the mammies of the movement. Um, if, if you will like, so the folks who are, um, thinking about care quite frankly, is oftentimes how I see it and thinking about community care, whether it be making sure that there's food for everybody, um, the space is set up well, that we have like comfortable seating, all of these different things that I see folks defaults. Um, and as fat folks have played those in particular roles of taking care of people, um, or, you know, sort of expecting that we kind of just we'll take it all. I think that that's like what an, a culture of, um, anti-fat is like, does to us, um, is that tells us that, you know, because we live in these bodies, um, that are deemed less like worthy that we need to always be proving our worth, um, to be in space.

And so that therefore we're defaulted into those care type roles, um, of taking charge of having to lead other folks of making sure that everybody has a down, um, as if we're kind of like the movement moms. And I I've experienced that personally. Um, and I think that like, what's so wild and so, um, it makes it so pervasive is that folks really don't see those connections, you know, but as a fat person, you can look around and see it.

You know what I mean? Like you can see at the end of the meeting, Or the beginning of the meeting who's doing what period. Um, or even just the ways that I see folks, um, willing to treat people, you know, I think that the, the, um, right wing attacks on Patrisse Cullors right now is indicative of that, um, that this, this like fat Black woman, mother, um, community leader is so easily, like folks are so willing to come and take her down, um, is because, unless we're like doing everything for people, we're just deemed as less worthy.

So that's, you know, like really how, um, I see that. And for me, I think that like, um, anti-fat bias work, like come on inside of Black queer feminism. Um, my organization, one of the one that I helped to start with eight others, Black Visions, um, based here in Minnesota, um, we operate intentionally through a Black queer feminist lens.

And I think that really is to say that, um, everybody is worth is worth value, um, and needs to be seen, and that our issues are deeply intersected. You know, so to my first answer, like I don't come to, um, understand and love, um, and center my fatness without also coming to that around my Blackness. Um, and that those things are interconnected.

And, um, when we are like rooting in from a Black queer feminist lens, I think we're actually able to think about what does everybody need to show up in this space? You know, whether it be like, um, body affirming chairs to, um, access to PowerPoints, um, to interpretation, like whatever it is. Um, I think that that's really what informs my work and allows me to come in, you know, as, um, as all of who I am, you know?

SB: No. Yeah. I, yeah, I think we talk a lot about universal design, um, here, but when you think about any sustainable movement, if you're not including everybody, then what, what are you doing with it too? And so really important to have that perspective on Black Visions and. Love love. Thank you for providing that context for us and our audience, because I think you've kind of answered my next question, but like something we've discussed is, you know, audience members can, you know, be really engaged in community activism and others are interested, but unsure how to get started in it. And so I'm just curious, um, what you would suggest for someone who may be falls more into the latter category of getting more engaged. 

KM: Um, I think for folks who were getting more engaged, like one, I do think it's important to educate yourself, um, on the issues and what folks are saying, like in the day and age of social media and like the internet being everywhere.

Um, there's just so much brilliant thinking, um, that is happening. And I think that I have seen folks do sometimes more harm than they intended because they didn't actually really, um, educate themselves about like, why are people frustrated? Why are people angry in this moment? Um, what happens to create these conditions?

Um, and what is some of the current thought, um, around that? Like, I think that that's, you know, one of the first steps that folks can take, um, the second one is, you know, always just like plugging in and volunteering. There are a lot of different opportunities that come up in these emergent moments. Like we're seeing right now, um, after the murder of Daunte Wright.

And we will probably see in the months to come where, whether it be passing out mutual aid, um, you know, driving to go collect, um, supplies for community members, like small things like that, that, um, allow you to take less risks, but get more comfortable. Um, in being inside of movement space, being active in your community, I think is like always a good way to start.

And then there are also a ton of organizations, um, in the Twin Cities, like, I mean, just so many, um, it and other cities, right that have opportunities for people to come in and phone bank people and talk to people about what's happening. What's the issue right now. Um, I'm working with the Movement for Black Lives to host like a phone bank to do wellness checks on community members in Brooklyn Center.

Um, because we know everything that's happening there. Right. So I think that, and that, and that happens with organizations all the time. And so I always recommend people to like Google it, you know, like truly. Yeah. I mean, you know, if we're worth our salt, we probably have a website or a Facebook page or an Instagram.

Um, in this day and age, I think organizers know that we need to be on the internet so that folks can connect with us, but Google it, what are the things that you're interested in, right. Are you interested in elections? Are you interested in racial justice? What are those things? Um, and then seek out those organizations that come up in your locality.

Um, and that's the other thing I just really want to emphasize to people is like, we have people all the time coming across the country, like I would love to like help out Black Visions or whatever. Um, and it's like, there are probably Black led organizations in your community that you can support, um, that you can, um, you know, be, be throwing down with.

And so I think it's, you know, really reading in, um, locally and like, I think if all of that feels a little bit too overwhelming, I'm also just like talk to your neighbors and your family and, you know, like that's always the simplest step that people, and, and, and for some people it's actually a big challenge, right. 

But, um, is one of the first steps that people can take is like start pulling your neighbors together to talk about these issues. You know, from there you're going to build large, a larger circle, um, and be able to make more of an impact. Um, I saw a lot of that in the 2020 uprisings where a lot white neighbors, we're bringing others together to be like, yo, okay. So. You know, we want to have safe communities, but we certainly don't want to see, you know, Black and Brown people be killed by the police, traditionally, um, you know, every few months. So like, what do we want for safety? And having those critical conversations is also, um, a really important place to start and last but not least.

Um, I do think that it's important for us to think about how we're really redistributing wealth. And so oftentimes folks who live on that latter category of, they're not really sure, you know, part of that is because of the level of urgency that people experience because of the ways that they are not directly impacted by the issues of today.

Right. Right. Um, and that's just part of the reality. And if you are less impacted by the issues of things like policing or housing or whatever, you probably more likely because of the way that the system is set up or rigged, um, have the resources. Uh, to donate, to give, to mobilize, um, to support movements.

And like, I don't think that always means cash donations. I think it had also mean like, um, being willing to use your vehicle or, you know, your office or your business space or something like that. Um, but we do need to think about that as part of our activism, as well as like, how are we redistributing wealth, um, to those who are, are fighting literally for their lives.

SB: Thank you, and what is interesting too, is like that education piece. It's like, well, that's going to be an ongoing part of any of this. So no matter where you're at, as far as sharing your wealth, sharing your resources, actually volunteering, having those conversations, it's, it's, uh, it's going to grow, right? Like it can't ever be stagnant or at one point.

So just doing it in the first place, if it isn't something that—also I'm I'm, you know, surprised by anybody who isn't called to take action by this point. But that being said, um, appreciate your insight on that. And I think a lot of people can figure out what they want to do next, based on that. 

KM: Yeah, absolutely. And just to your point real quick, like I think that it is, you're making a really important point, which is like, all of this is a transition, but it does require consistent action towards that transition. You know, like we really are in this moment where we're beyond even just like a moral choice. Like we are literally in a choice for our survival.

Um, and because this plan, it's not trying to stick around for us to exploit each other and, and it for much longer. Right. And so like, um, we are actually time bounds on how long we can really make this transition. And I think that that's. Um, super dark and scary for people. It's really, uh, you know, I have my dark days, I have my days when I'm like, wow, like shit is way too overwhelming to get out of bed.

Um, but that's also just the reality, right. That's the fact of our lives right now. And so we do have to constantly kind of be in this process of figuring out how we're working towards that transition. Um, you know, cause to me, and from my standpoint, I'm like, I don't think we have any other choice, you know, so yeah. Thank you for just like lifting that up and, and offering that. Yeah. 

CP: That is like dark and also so real and such a, like a good way to think about this as such an imperative. So I really appreciate that perspective as well. Um, but in a true pivot, um, we want to know Kandace what's bringing you joy professionally, personally, or both. What's bringing you joy?

KM: Uh, thank you. Um, what's bringing me joy. Um, I would definitely say, um, the sun coming back out, peeking her head back out and then going back in. But no, I got it a few hours in, um, my garden yesterday. I just had to take a break from everything and that just really brought me a lot of joy just to like, feel like a human being again in like, honestly it's been, it's been hard to find joy, you know, I feel like so much of us have had our lives.

Um, uh, uprooted because of this virus and pandemic and you know, of course uprisings and all of these things. So my therapist is like, it's okay if it's just hard and I'm like, okay, thank you for affirmation. Um, it's totally normal just to sit on the couch and not have any energy do anything else. But, um, I do think that the change in weather, um, has been bringing me, um, a lot of joy.

Um, you know, I love reading, of course, um, that's, you know, a thing that will consistently bring me joy, especially being able to read about Black futures Afrofuturism, um, and Mae Jemison had just finished another one of her books and that was, uh, very joyful. The other thing that's given me a lot of joy is I have a ni bling.

CP: Oh yes I saw that on your Facebook! Or your Instagram rather. 

KM: Yes, they are a little over three months old now, Miles Atlas Jackson. And, um, basically the best thing, I just go back to my, cause my sister sends me photos of him, like all the time, obviously, because I request them and I just, actually, I'm not kidding. Y'all I like will be on work calls and, or just like whatever in life and just like, like I'm not feeling good and just like go back to his little picture of his little bald head and just, oh my god. Yeah. And he's a little chunky too, which makes me, so happy. He's like through his clothes super rapidly. So, um, that just brings me a lot of joy in like becoming a TT and seeing my sister, um, become a mother has just been like such a beautiful and like life-changing and affirming experience. So, um, yeah. And also shout out to my partner, um, who, yeah, keeps me laughing and giggling, I think.

Those are some things in my personal life and, um, professionally, well, I guess in like my organizing work, um, it's always being able to build with Black people. You know, I'm just like so lucky that the organization that, you know, I call political home and then I also get to work for, um, that when I do pop on the screen, um, cause that's where we are these days.

Right. Um, it's all Black people, it's majority queer and trans people. Um, and just getting to spend a majority of my time with other Black people, um, figuring out this work and there's just an inherent, like joy and silliness and celebration that comes with that, because I think we're all just trying to figure out how we weave that into this work because of how dark and heavy it is all the time.

So, you know, just like from silly moments of when Ivvy Park had the newest release, you know, and just like my staff just being so ready to like get the new stuff, you know, and yeah. Are there just like moments, um, that we get to just like tap into things that are a little bit less serious, um, and life-threatening, um, is really dope.

And then also they'd be able to switch and, and really build power with people. Um, yeah, those are, I think. My little, my spots of joy. And then now that like more people on my staff and myself have nibblings or like we have a bunch of babies coming. So there's like a lot of baby pictures constantly in our threads, um, and or dog cat pictures. So that definitely also gives me joy. And that I think is the sort of overlap between the two. 

SB: Yeah, it's interesting. Cause it, when Cat was introducing that it did feel like a pivot, but at the same time, this kind of work and the, just the reality we live in right now, you have to be able to see the joys and the sunshine, whether that be actual sunshine or that from our relationships coming together to make it sustainable in some way, shape or form. So yeah. Thank you so much. 

KM: Yeah, absolutely. 

SB: Where can people find you if they'd like to know more and follow your work? That's a, that's a good question. Um, all my, my socials are generally private, so if I know you, you're welcome to follow them. Um, if we're in community with each other. Yeah. You're welcome to follow me at @KurvyKurly. Um, with Ks, um, on Instagram, um, I'm on Twitter, but I never use it. So I think that folks can really follow my work, um, by following Black Visions, um, @BlackVisionsMN on Twitter. Um, And then something similar. I think @BlackVisionsCollective on Instagram. I'm not sure our exact handle. That's so bad at me. It's like, no, so bad of me.

SB: Don't worry. We’ll find it.

KM: Um, but yeah, folks can follow my, my, um, work with Black Visions there and then I'm also on Facebook and that is a public platform. Um, so folks could find me Kandace Montgomery on Facebook. Um, yeah. And hopefully also like see me out in these streets soon again when we can all do that more, much more safely.

SB: Absolutely. Absolutely. Anything else that you'd like to share with us or talk about in our time together today? 

KM: Um, no. I just really appreciate y'all um, pulling these intersections together. Um, Yeah, just like deeply grateful. And I have to do a lot of interviews these days and I often say no to them because they're just always the same story.

And I just think that the more that we get to tell these tender stories of where our bodies exist, that all of these different intersections and especially where like fat Black women get to talk about their stories. Um, it's just like very moving for me. So lots of gratitude to y'all. 

CP: Thank you, Kandace. You are the absolute best. The work you're doing is so important. You are so important and I'm just, oh, just so grateful that you were able to be with us on Matter of Fat.

KM: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

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CP: Oh, what a great interview. Um, so yeah, we wanted to share a quick, a few quick thoughts that we have, um, based on our conversation with Kandace and, you know, I wanted to bring up that performance that she was in, that she talked about in her story as a Matter of Fat, uh, it's just like how beautiful to have that experience in college and, you know, Saraya, as much as we talk about college for radicalizing us in a lot of ways, I don't know about you, but for me it did not radicalize me very much around my body and body politics.

SB: No me either. I mean, that came a lot later, but also you were having like a fat or plus sized clothing swap through a little bit of that. Um, and I, yeah, we clearly love our college experience. We were really lucky. It was fun to hear that be similar for her. I just, you know, from this interview, I just been taking away so much gratitude for hearing what her philosophy about activism looks like, I think we, we hear about what organizing is or that it's needed and that things happen from it. But like hearing someone talk about their craft in such a way was just really special too. 

CP: Yeah, I totally agree. I loved just some of the critiques she had to share too. Like, um, when mentioning about sort of fat folks being quote, movement moms, you know, kind of pushed into certain roles and I see that happening in a lot of spaces. Um, and it's interesting how she called this out too, that like fat people are often really aware of this, but like folks who aren't just don't see it until we pointed out to them.

SB: Yeah. Yeah. And I guess I was really appreciative too. I'm just grateful. Obviously you're going to hear me say appreciate all the time. I said, celebrate a lot earlier, like get out of bingo boards, everyone. Um, but I just like her time and thought process around what we can do depending on where we are at activism and work to make the world a better place.

So I just want to reiterate this. If you are not already engaged or you want to deepen your engagement or understanding of, you know, supporting your community one, checkout, anything, infographics or book recommendations, podcasts, just to see what you most love and enjoy about whatever topic is, peaking your interest.

And then that callout of about looking for organizations in your area. It doesn't have to be Black Visions. It doesn't have to be the Twin Cities, obviously we focus on that quite a bit, but like there are probably people doing really cool stuff in your area. Um, and like, how can you volunteer your time, your money, your abilities, your things, to support that.

And then like, talk to your family neighbors. This is what the podcast is about. We're talking like this, our platform, the least we can do is just share these stories and what we're hearing, and hopefully engage in that conversation with you. I mean, it was like me talking about Minnesota HEALS earlier.

It's like, uh, you know, people sharing information on mutual aid. You don't have to be perfect in these spaces, but you have to be thoughtful. And, you know, having a conversation with people is the first way to do that. 

CP: Yes, yes, yes. To all that. And also to call out redistributing wealth, if, and when you can.

SB: Absolutely. Absolutely. Any other thoughts Cat? 

CP: I just like can't the whole world just operate through a Black queer feminist lens. I mean, I feel like that would just that'd be great. 

SB: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, we've appreciated being able to break down our quick thoughts about this wonderful interview, but maybe we should get into the Dirt and Discourse.

CP: Let's do it.

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CP: It's time for the Dirt and Discourse. This is where we dive into the excitement and discomfort around relevant pop and cultural happenings. And yeah, it's like everyone's celebrating Fat Liberation month. Even my upstairs neighbors apparently. Right now, I don't know what's happening.

SB: They're doing a jig or something in my closet.

CP: I don't know. But as we alluded to at the top, we're excited to talk about NAAFA’s first ever Fat Liberation Month. 

SB: Yeah. It's been going on. So we are a little late to the party and we're just really grateful that this is something we can celebrate with you and talk about today. 

CP: Yeah. So, uh, NAAFA - 

SB: Which stands for the National Association to Advance Fat Acceptance -

CP: Their mission is to empower fat people through education, advocacy, and support. And one of their newest initiatives is declaring May Fat Liberation Month.

SB: A bold declaration. 

CP: Love it!

SB: I never thought I'd see the day, but here we are. 

CP: And you know, actually May 6th for, for years, I think maybe since 2014 has been International No Diet Day. So I wonder if that connects at all, or if that was part of what prompted May to be this month.

SB: Yeah, and I appreciate the way that they've done it, because even though they're claiming a month, there's only so many months, right. Every month, it's something else I'm just really impressed by how they included programming around some of the other months that are being celebrated as well. 

CP: Yes. The way they kind of talked about it was really, I thought really thoughtful. Um, and so I guess what fat liberation month is, um, NAAFA on the website, you can read all about kind of the history of the month, who kind of said what, when that helped inform this to become a thing. And then the whole month they've been doing different programming, virtual programming, around different, um, people and topics related to fat liberation.

SB: I'm excited to see where this takes us in, you know, 5 years, 10 years, 20 years. Because as we know body positivity, fat liberation, I mean, certainly fat liberation is not something that the world knows about. We can't use it. Everybody's celebrating. We don’t know that.

CP: Most assuredly. My neighbors are not celebrating Fat Liberation Month. Right now. They're just being loud and I'm looking for a way to explain. 

SB: Sure, sure, sure. Uh, but I can't wait because of the initiative of NAAFA taking on a month, you know, what more is going to come and how many more people are going to become aware of what we are all about here at Matter of Fat.

CP: Yeah. And you know, I've really excited to see all of the work coming from NAAFA. It's like really cool to see the growth that has happened. And like the, the addition of things NAAFA has been putting out in the world even in the last year. So I'm really excited for this month.

And I hope that, um, just like you were sharing Saraya, like, it'll be cool to see how this grows in years to come. And, you know, maybe that means we might have the opportunity to participate a little bit more next May because a lot of the programming has already happened by the time this episode comes out.

Um, one thing I would say is the way I'm celebrating, uh, this wonderful month is by doing this podcast. That's a cop out, that's a cop out, I suppose, because we're going to do it right anyways, but I'm also just, you know, reading, I'm reading Aubrie Gordon's book right now, trying to kind of figure out a way to honor um, myself and my body, especially as the days get warmer, um, being really proud of who I am and how I go through the world. And so I invite you to think about how you'd like to celebrate this Fat Liberation Month. 

CP: What a beautiful invitation for everyone, everyone. Everywhere. 

SB: Everyone everywhere should be celebrating Fat Liberation Month.

Um, and this isn't like very Dirt and Discourse-y of us, I guess we're not really diving into anything. 

CP: We don’t have a whole lot of critique. I mean, we could critique, but at this point we just are happy. This is the thing. Um, and we look forward to its growth in years to come. 

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SB: Hello friends. You've made it to the end of another fabulous episode. 

CP: Thanks so much for spending time with us y'all. As always remember, you can visit our website for full show notes on info shared in this episode, plus on our website, you'll find transcripts and Podluck info. The next one's June 3rd info about Matter of Fat links to our socials, access to older eps and more. 

SB: And I get the exciting part in this outro. I get to shout out the wonderful Nicole for sending us some Fat Cash!

CP: Yay. Yes. Thanks to Nicole. If more of you are interested in sending some Fat Cash our way you can find us on Venmo @MatterofFatPod. And of course there's more info about Fat Cash on our website.

Your funds help us with the podcast cost and compensating our wonderful and lovely Matter of Fat assistants. We’ve actually had a few things up for renewal in the last few, including our website and our transcription program, which are two pretty big reoccurring expenses. So your Fat Cash can help us offset these costs and other expenses. So we thank you a great, great deal. 

CP: Fat Cash is so appreciated and also never expected. We'll gladly accept your support. However, it comes our way. And on that note, thanks to everyone who shared about Matter of Fat, on social media, these last two weeks, we appreciate you. 

SB: Yes, you, you listening right now. You are the reason we create this podcast and we love to see so many of you listening and engaging with us. 

CP: Truly. It warms our hearts. We love you.

SB:  Can't say it enough. We love you. We love you.

CP: So much love. But our love fest has to come to an end so we will bid you adieu -

SB: Until next time when we're back with another episode of—

CP + SB: —Matter of Fat.

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