S4E5 - Fat Dish: troublesome twitter, Plan B, + Shrill season 3 - Transcript
Released on June 9th, 2021. For complete episode info, visit this page!
[THEME MUSIC FADES IN AND OUT]
Cat Polivoda: Welcome to Matter of Fat, a body positive podcast with Midwest sensibilities. Hi, I'm Cat Polivoda, a local fat feminist shop owner. And, I'm pleased to report that summer has officially hit the Midwest, people! I'm joined by my co-host and producer, Saraya Boghani.
Saraya Boghani: Hi, I'm Saraya. I'm a fat, multiracial, Minneapolitan millennial who cannot stand the heat. It’s a scorcher out there, folks! Hot girl summer is off to a real start and I don't like it. I don't like it.
CP: I guess I have mixed feelings. I don't know. I do, but I'm also very sweaty. On Matter of Fat, we're here to talk about the cultural politics of fat liberation with a Midwest perspective.
SB: And this is a Fat Dish episode. It won't include an interview like some of our other episodes, we'll have that next time for you. This one is just Cat and I.
CP: Yes! We're here dishing about the third and final season of Shrill, of course, other things are watching on TV, some yikes moments on Twitter, what it's like to be a little more out in the world and lots more, all as a—
CP and SB: —Matter of Fat.
[THEME MUSIC FADES IN AND OUT]
CP: Hot girl summer means this is the first time we are recording in the heat. And I would just like to let you know that I'm very sweaty in my closet. Saraya, how are you holding up?
SB: I mean, yeah, it wouldn't be the Midwest if we didn't talk about how hot it was. I will say I went to Richfield today, which is west of the Twin Cities, and I'm a little worried for the crops! I can't, I can't not talk about how brown it was out there and we need, we need the rain and this week it's just hot as heck. I can't deal with it.
But the reason I was out there was I was going to a graduation party cause um, the world is slightly more open now.
CP: Sweet!
SB: Yeah, it—it's weird, dude. It's real weird.
CP: Oh my gosh, yeah. Well, and Saraya, we had like our first, I don't know, togetherness experience out in the world, a mere, was it like two weeks ago?
SB: Oh my God. Baby's first patio moment after-slash-during the end of the pandemic.
CP: We were in rare form. I mean, there is no other way to describe it.
SB: Truly rare.
CP: I mean, when—something we giggled about is that we weren't carded, but we had like told the server earlier that it was like our first time out, you know, the entire pandemic and Saraya, you looked at me like, “Oh my gosh, we weren't carded.” And I was like, “Yeah, we said, we hadn't been out the whole pandemic. She knows we aren't—we are, we are old.”
SB: No youth are staying in the house, and no youth are coming out to Nightingale to their first patio drink post-pandemic. (Both CP and SB laugh) Accurate, accurate. But it was so sweet! It was just like, it felt, um, like truly immersive, I guess, because we were right on Lyndale in Uptown.
CP: We were outside, of course.
SB: Literally on the corner. Yeah, outside on the patio. Uh, we saw people we knew, people we knew saw us, we learned later; it was just, it was like a breezy, warm date, not hot like it is now, but it was just, was like the stimulus—I think, as I'm getting more and more into being in public spaces, it's like, it's so stimulating.
It's, it's like the colors are brighter. Everything sounds louder. And it's, I don't know. I'm not on any hallucinatory drugs, but it does certainly feel more than anything I've experienced in the last year or so.
CP: And, you know, I was thinking earlier today it feels like it's been a long time since we recorded. And it hasn't, it's been like, I don't know, a week or two? But like, I feel like I'm just doing more stuff and there's like more stuff happening. Um, and so I think that's why it feels like, oh, just like a lot has happened since last time we recorded rather than it being a long amount of time.
SB: Yeah. We're not just sittin’ in the house all the time.
CP: It's weird, but also wonderful!
SB: Mhmm. It also feels like it's, it's like there's no balance to it, I guess? Because I was just talking with some friends today who came over, like I was able to host a little coffee, pastry breakfast moment with some friends that had not been to my house yet because I moved in the midst of the pandemic.
And we were just talking about how like, we're so excited to see people, and yet all of a sudden we're overwhelmed with how much is on our calendars because we haven't planned effectively. Like we're not ready to go from zero to a hundred and yet there's this desire to be with people and see people.
And yet folks are gonna like, flake out because it is too much. And like, I forgot that traffic was a thing! Like getting into a place and being there on time, I was like, “Oh yeah, you have to travel. Oops. Forgot about that.”
It's just, um, it's a surreal experience that I hope to capture and remember, um, because I hope never to go through it again. Yeah. That's what I'm putting out there.
CP: Yeah, it is, it's just like truly wild to think about how we're gonna kind of reacclimate to all of this. For me, I would say it's not as if like my calendar is really filling up, but, um, Cake is reopening. And so that's been where a lot of like, my time and energy has gone, um, not, our like full schedule just a couple of days a week in the summer, but starting actually this upcoming weekend, and so I'm just like, wow, I'm going to be in the shop with people like for, you know, two long days a week. Like, how is that going to feel?
Um, so I'm both very excited about it, um, also just like very grateful to be able to do that because like, as a business it's necessary, but also just interested to check in with myself as that goes on and like, how is this all feeling?
SB: Absolutely. And this is like maybe an intrusive question. You do not have to answer it if you don't want to, but like as a small business owner, what's the decision on a mask situation? Because I know Minneapolis has like its own rules, St. Paul felt like it needed to change its rules because of Minneapolis's decision. Um, and just like, how does that feel for you?
CP: It's complicated and, you know, as mask mandates become looser and looser—or I guess in our situation kind of non-existent now—some of the feedback from community members and small business owners has been, that makes it a lot tougher for small businesses to enforce that kind of thing if we choose to require masks.
So I, I know that we will start out requiring masks. Um, I just, I don't know how that will move and flow as the summer goes on and into the fall. I think for myself, I feel pretty, I feel pretty okay. I am vaxxed and really comfortable spending time with other vaccinated people in close quarters, like inside, like that feels that I'm, I've become quickly acclimated to that and it feels quite all right.
But I don't, I just know that when you open a place up to the, when you open yourself up to the public and in my situation, like my business up to the public, you know, there will be, there will assuredly be people who are not vaccinated who come in, probably not a lot, but definitely some, and I don't want to like require vaccination cards at the door, you know, for general shopping like that doesn't feel good for me.
So we will, um, require masks, especially at—well, that's our, when we reopen this weekend, masks will be required. And at some point that will change, and I don't quite know when that will be yet.
SB: Yeah, that makes sense.
CP: Also I think the—in the fall, like, so in the summer it's hot and we need to have our air conditioning on. And while it does move the air, it's still just like the same, it just doesn't feel like it's really nice. But in the fall, when we can like have more breeze happening, I feel like I'll feel even better about the opportunity to not require masks. But I mean, stay tuned. I'll let you know in three months what I decide.
SB: Hopefully we're not having the same conversation in three months and everything is smooth sailing from here on out. But I think for me, it's been so bizarre just going into places and like seeing bare faces. Yeah, it's weird. I don't know. It's weird. I did go to the Minneapolis Institute of Art the other day for the first time in forever. And it was, it was cute. ‘Cause I'm trying to take the lead of like what the staff are doing and it's mixed.
And so I'm like, okay, well I'll, I'll walk around, I guess, without a mask still like 12 feet away from any person at any given time, ‘cause that's—that one's going to be harder for me to leave. I love being away from people that love, not being near anybody at all times. Um, but uh, when I was leaving, I overheard some of the staff, it was really sweet. They were talking to each other and when one person said like, “I forgot that people had faces, it's so good to see faces”.
I was like, okay, well that makes me feel less worse about my decision to not wear a mask in here. But, um, yeah, like we get to see people again and like have that, uh, another point of understanding and connection and yeah.
CP: Like, so my, how I've been operating the last couple of weeks or since the mask mandate, um, ended in Minneapolis is like, I will put my mask on if I'm going into places where I might be kind of close to people or around a lot of people. So like grocery stores, gas stations, that kind of thing, it's on for sure. But it sounds like at the museum, it's like, you got to really, I don't know, spread out a lot, be by yourself.
SB: It was a Thursday morning, like, yeah, it was pretty chill. So that was nice. That's nice. Yeah. I think being near people, yeah. Still. It's a whole new anxiety that we all get to go through together.
CP: To further connect that to my shop, like, I have a small shop, like we're going to have a capacity, but even still, like people are going to be close to each other. Um, that's just, I mean, like within six feet, I guess, but there's just, yeah, the smaller the space, the more opportunity there is to be, um, near folks. And I think, yeah, masks provide a little, for me, I feel more comfortable like at the grocery store at when I'm checking out and there's like four people that I could probably touch around me. It's like, okay. I feel a little better that we have masks on right now.
SB: Let's keep our breath to ourselves, that sounds great.
All right. Well, anything else been going on as far as like re-integrating into the world or what else is on your mind?
CP: I had a beautiful back-in-the-world moment. Saraya, I got to go see my mom for the first time in so long. So one of the best, like the biggest gifts of this last year and a half is that my mom has been so careful and thoughtful about like, her COVID precautions.
And it's just while I know, um, for some people in my circles, like, they've been very concerned and worried about their parents and for my mom, I have not had to worry at all. And it's been such a gift. And also that meant I didn't get to like, go to her house or give her a hug for a year and a half. Um, and I saw her a couple times, like we exchanged like Christmas presents, like in the car, like with our windows down.
And like, she put mine in my trunk and then I put hers in her trunk—you know, it was very like. That kind of deal. Um, yeah, so yeah, I got to just like go hang out at her house for a couple of days and it was just so nice to spend time with her. I'm just never more relaxed than I am when I'm at my mom's house. I just go like, go sit on her couch for 48 hours, and it is just the very best time.
SB: Okay. We were texting a little bit about this and like, you were like, “I'm trying to get on the road, but I have to like wrench myself away from it.” And I feel the same way, ‘cause I got a little bit of time with my parents. Luckily I've been able to see them a little bit more, especially in the last few months, but, uh, it's hard. It's hard after like, having so much time apart, and the comfort of just being with others and people who like want to take care of you too. I cannot, it's—I cannot overstate how important that is, and just how lucky I am to have them. But that feeling that you were talking about was like, I just, I know I'm supposed to leave, but it’s real hard.
Yeah, I don't wanna, is literally the vibe. Yeah. After spending some time with the fam I’m really grateful for, because I know not everybody has that experience with their family, but like, I’m so glad you got time with Becky.
CP: Oh my gosh. It was so great. And actually, I guess I exaggerated a little bit; I didn't stay on her couch for like 48 hours entirely because as moms do, my mom was like, okay, Caitlin, I have these piles of things that I can no longer store. You need to take them home with you!
SB: Can I call you Caitlin?—
CP: —No, just my family? I guess Caitlin is my given name. Um, but yeah, usually only my mom and like family call me Caitlin and you know, like the doctor in the bank and stuff. Um, but I, so I had, I went through a bunch of stuff that she had kind of set aside for me and much of it was pictures. And in addition to going through all of my photo albums that she has kind of set for me, my mom also let me go through photo albums that she's been putting together of her life and like, our—her—our family. So like so many extended family members that I kind of know, but don't really know all about.
And, oh my gosh, it was just, it was the most fun looking at all these pictures. And I don't know if you saw, but I shared a lot of photos of myself back in the day on my Instagram, because the style was just. It was—
SB: —Immaculate, is the adjective you’re—
CP: —Something to write home about.
SB: The nineties assignments were noted and done correctly. Do we have sharp spiky hair? Check. Did we have mismatching layers of, uh, dresses or skirts over jeans? Check. Um, was there painted jeans?
CP: Oh yeah.
SB: Check. Um, I just, there was a sassy sunglasses photo that I just—
CP: —My senior photo, you know, how you, like—
SB: —I die.
CP: It was just so fun!
When I was in high school I just wore really wild clothes. I think we've talked about this before. Yeah. When we talked about, um, in our minisode about the benefits of being fat. I think we kind of talked about this. And I do think that part of it for me was like, “Well I know I'm going to stick out anyway, so let me like, take a little more control of this narrative.” But from just like, a fashion perspective, I really feel like that time of my life gave me permission to explore and like kind of play with fashion in ways that some people don't, or like, it showed me that I could really enjoy that.
Um, cause I know for some people that's not something that's very fun. And while I do not dress as, um, I don't know, mismatched and like, uh eccentrically as I did then, I do think it's like, cool to, um, kind of know how that history has informed my current style.
SB: Absolutely. I think, you know, you could tell that you were really confident in those photos too. Like, I mean, granted, they're photos, but you just looked like you were having the best time in all of them. And I think that's telling of feeling confident in the clothes that you put together the looks you put together, because these were FULL looks. Like these were not mismatched pieces. This was like a whole ensemble that was cultivated and curated specifically.
CP: What's so funny. It's like, if people like that's something I say a lot is like, I don't like things that are like outfits or like, if there's a group look, I don't like it to be too matchy, but I like it to coordinate. And that is what those really wild looks from high school where it's like, there are four different patterns going on—talk about pattern mixing—
SB: —Multiple paislies I saw coming through. I'm surprised I didn't see more hemp necklaces, to be honest.
CP: Yeah, no, those were not, those didn't get as much of my love as, yeah, paisley stuff; old, like, um, polyester; old thrifted, like vintage things; I mean, it was, it was a moment.
Um, but yeah, it was just really fun to go through those and it was fun to share some of those looks, um, and like some of those childhood photos on Instagram and it's a lot of people, um, also were like “Relatable—I also looked like I was 45 in my ninth grade photo, like, school photo. I'm glad it wasn't alone!” Thanks, y'all. Yeah.
And actually, that's something that I was noticing too, like. I think, you know, just the, the lens or like the way we look at things now, looking back at old—things we know now looking back at old photos, um, I just, I was always so much bigger than everyone, but I just like, looked so much older than everyone, even when I was like four, I looked like I was seven, you know?
Um, and I think that, like, body size has something to do with that. But also I was looking through my mom's photo albums and I think she was kind of mature for her ages when she was younger as well, and we've always resembled each other quite a bit, so. I don't know. It's just like interesting to think about, um, yeah, I think about how our body size and how we look showing up in the world impacts how people treat us as we are in our youth, you know?
SB: Yeah, definitely.
CP: Yeah. But anyway, it was cool to know I was not alone in that, in that moment. Also, I feel so compelled to share this. This is a really specific reference that maybe a few of you, I don't even know if you'll know this Saraya. Did you, uh, ever read the Ramona Quimby books by Beverly Cleary when you were young?
SB: I, I don't know. My memory is very hazy. Like I know of them, I don't know if I actually read them or like maybe I read one. I was like, “Nah, give me those magic bricks, gimme those Harry Potter books, give me some C.S. Lewis.” I don't know. Why, what's the, what's the reference?
CP: So we read this to my family and actually we watched the movies. Like when we were younger, we would rent the movies, the old, old movies, the Ramona movies.
SB: There were movies?! I didn’t even know.
CP: From the public library, we would rent them. But there's this quote in the book that my family—my family being my mom, my sister and I—we laugh at, we still laugh at.
Ramona's older sister Beezus goes and gets her hair cut. And she's just so excited to get her hair cut and she comes home and it just looks so bad. And Ramona says, “She was a 12 year old girl, with 40 year old hair.”
(Both CP and SB laugh) And it’s just like, there've been so many moments, so many school pictures in my life where it's like, ‘She was an adolescent woman with a soccer mom hairstyle.”
SB: I mean, you were a five-year-old girl with a pageant, like, wig, hair situation going on. Yeah, that was your real hair. Oh my god.
CP: Yeah that was just a little bit of an adventure but anyway, um, gosh, sorry, went on on about that, but it was just so much fun to be with my mom and look through photos and chat through all of that stuff, um, and share some of those photos on Instagram. Oh my—and like kind of be, um, surrounded by other people who also like saw themselves in the weirdness that was high school. Yeah. Oh goodness.
SB: Mhmm. That's it! Well, okay. Here's one other thing I'll share about that is like, it is very much the time where people are finally going back to their parents' house.
I'm speaking specifically of my friends. You are included in that, of course, but I have other friends too, who are, experienced this too, where they go back and their parents have, you know, been in their houses for a long time. And so they want to get rid of everything in the house. And so they ended up having to be like, “All right, go through this, go through this, take it. Otherwise I'm getting rid of it.” And my friend was like, “Well, I didn't want this saved in the first place. You're the one who saved it.” But somehow I have acquired one of my best friend's little brother's self portraits from like fifth grade or something.
CP: No. Incredible.
SB: It's incredible. And I have a plan for it. I have, um, one of my other best friends, actually, Mykall, who we've mentioned on the pod before, um, he did a self portrait in college—
CP: —Which you also have!—
SB: —Which I love, on canvas. Yeah. So I'm going to have a wall of like people's self portraits. I think I'm going to start collecting them. So if anybody out there who's listening can, if we're, if we're friendly, if we're friends and you've been to my home before—which is a slim amount of people at the pandemic—but if you have a childhood, um, portrait that you would like to contribute to my wall of portraits, please hit me up, especially if you're going through your parents' stuff and it becomes feasible.
CP: Wow, I wish I had a portrait to contribute. I have some collages?
SB: Nope. It has to be a self portrait. No, it’s only thing, keeping it loose theme together. Random children's artwork on my wall. Yeah. Yeah.
CP: OK, I know we're gonna talk about Shrill later—so like we should talk a little bit about TV we're watching, media we're consuming, right?
SB: Yeah. I'm a little miffed. I got to say so.
CP: I know where this is going.
SB: So, Cat and I talk about Criminal Minds just too often, just too often. A couple months ago, I started watching it for the first time ever, and I've been like slowly making my way through—also I'm only on season eight also, it's not even halfway.
CP: Even though there’s only 12 seasons on Netflix. There's—we learned there's 15, maybe 16 total. I mean, wild!
SB: Yeah. Yeah, I'm not, I'm not there, but, um, Cat recently—and by that, I mean the last month—decided to like start watching it and she has overtaken me watching the shows. So before I was gonna be like, “Did you see this? Wait until this happens!” And now she's doing it to me. And I got to say it does hype up the scenario a little bit. I'm a little bit more excited, but I just, you're fast and furious with it, girlfriend. And I don't know how to keep up with you. You're gonna be seasons ahead by the time—
CP: Oh how the tables have turned—
SB: Have turned, how they've turned.
CP: I watched Criminal Minds years ago. And while I'm rewatching—kind of the same thing happened to you with Scandal. Cause like I watched all of the—I watched so much TV during this pandemic y'all and I will probably continue to, I love TV. Um, but I, I, rewatched Scandal, and so there was like some episodes that were really familiar, and then at some point I transitioned to, to seasons I'd never seen. And with Criminal Minds, I'm still on the seasons that I've seen before, but only some of the shows are really like, in my recollection, other ones, I don't quite remember.
So Saraya you'd get—and I'm also someone who doesn't really mind spoilers. So it was fun for you to be like, “Oh wait ‘til this happens, wait ‘til this happens!” But now I guess maybe I need to get clear with you. Do you want, do you want little peaks of things or do you need to wait until you've seen the app before we talk about it?
SB: Oh my god, I don’t know! Here's the deal people, the reason we talk about it so much is because we are very wrapped up in these people's lives.
CP: We are so invested in the lives of these fictitious characters!
SB: These fake, fake people who are workplace friends. I can, I consider that my favorite shows are like workplace family situations, right? Like, well, maybe not even my favorite, but like the ones that captivate our imaginations the most, because like The Office is obviously a national favorite, dare I say international. Um, yeah, actually, because it's literally from the UK first and foremost. Wow. Rude. Um, and that's a workplace scenario.
Back in the day when I loved Bon Appétit Test Kitchen, that was like a bunch of workplace folks who were friends and friendly. Uh, you want to talk about Law and Order? I mean, any copaganda show, people are at work, that’s how you get to know them.
CP: Every frickin’ copaganda show, ugh! We've discussed one of my least attractive qualities is that I can not kick the copaganda habit. I just,—and, and although I would not put Criminal Minds in that, well, I don't know, would you? Probably?
SB: Yeah, but they're like slightly different. They're like apart from the cops, but they're not, they’re working with them at all times.
CP: And Saraya they kill so many people they killed and I've heard, I remember, okay. In a recent episode in season eight, Derek Morgan read someone his rights when he arrested them. And I thought, “This is the first time I've ever heard someone being read their rights when they were arrested.” Season eight!
SB: I think it switched! I think early on, I think they actually did like book the people more often than not. And I don't know if there was any testing, like group testing or people were like, “Why do these people keep living?” I don't know what changed, but then it did shift over to them more often than not killing the unsub—”unidentified subject.” Um, yeah.
And also when we, we can stop talking about this now, because we’ll keep talking about it forever. But if anybody wants to get in on all the Criminal Minds chatter with us, just tweet us, hop in the Friends and Fans Facebook group because we got thoughts, we got opinions. We're on season eight as of right now, by the time this airs Cat will be on season 13 and I will still be on season eight episode three.
CP: No, no this is in like three days, I will still be—these are like 40 minute episodes. I'll still be in season nine. Don't worry. And yeah, nine—
SB: Nine?
CP: Yeah, we’re in nine now.
SB: I’m in eight babe.
CP: No, we’re in nine.
SB: No, is that true?
CP: Yeah, ‘cause remember nine was like, yep.
SB: Yep.
CP: We're really, we're one episode away from each other.
SB: It's going too fast. It's too fast!
CP: Ok, we need to stop before this turns into a Criminal Minds podcast, which on the one hand I would not hate, but on the other hand is not our Matter of Fat vibe—
SB: What a huge plot twist for all the folks talking—I mean, and we could go off on the fat stuff or the lack thereof, but yeah. Okay.
CP: But we won't today.
SB: That’s for the Patreon. Just kidding, we don’t have a Patreon.
CP: Let's talk about other things we’ve been watching, ‘cause you recommended an awesome Hulu movie to me that we have to talk about.
SB: Yeah. And I talked about it on the pod a few episodes ago, I can't remember how many more.
So I was really excited for this Hulu movie called Plan B staring Kuhoo Verma and other folks that are like unknown. I don't think—I knew like one person in it and that's because they used to work at CollegeHumor or something like that, but unknown, nobody would know them. Um, but it is basically, it is of the trope of like Booksmart or Superbad, or Harold & Kumar movies where it's like two friends who go on an Odyssey to achieve their goal. Um, in this case, the goal is Plan B. And it's two girls who live in South Dakota, Midwest represent what's going on.
CP: Midwest, baby!
SB: Yeah. And so it came out, um, a couple of weeks ago and I watched it immediately cause I was just really excited to see somebody of South Indian or like South Asian descent, um, and to see like what this could look like, ‘cause we both loved Booksmart so much and the movie is great.
It is crude. I just got to say that like off the bat, like the languages, it didn't really bother me cause, um, I'm crude I guess. But, um, but it is done in a way that really serves character development and storytelling and it's like, so reminiscent of being a teen. Not that I was this teen, like I was not the teens that are represented in this movie, but I—parts of me, I think are represented in a really beautiful way. Ah, I love it. Cat, what did you think?
CP: I loved it! I was, like, you had recommended it and I was like, “Okay, it's on my list” or whatever. Um, and the other day I finally watched it and I just, I like, I didn't, I was compelled to just saying, to say right now, like I liked it more than I thought I would. I don't know why I didn't think I would like it very much?
Like I, because of, like you said, these shows, Booksmart. I mean, we love them. This is a little, it felt a little Moxie-y, you know, there's no like Odyssey in Moxie, but it's like, you know, we're high schoolers doing a thing.
Um, but it was incredible. I just, oh, I loved all of it. I thought it was so funny. I didn't mind the crudeness at all. In fact I kind of liked it. I mean, it was like an R-rated thing. I love, well, how many, how, in terms of spoilers, what are you thinking? Should we, should we not?
SB: Well, let’s do it!
CP: Well, this is not—what I'm about to say, actually, isn't really that big of a spoiler, but we see like a penis, like just very much full onscreen and we don't see any like women's nudity at all. And I just love that so much, because it is the exact opposite of what we ever see on TV and on the screen. I know it maybe sounds weird, but it's like, no, this is great.
SB: It's also like a very ludicrous moment. So, so much of this movie, and why I think it's actually quite smart, is because it's taking some of the ridiculousness of this country and specifically a state like South Dakota and using it to tell a bigger story. So like, what does that ridiculous? It's like, oh, this, this high school has abstinence-only education. Um, this high school or like this community, doesn't—has the option to like, not provide, um, sexual health.
CP: Plan B.
SB: Yeah. Plan B or other, other like resources, the pharmacy, the pharmacist doesn't have to provide that to people if they don't want to, because it's a conscience clause. Um, you know, what happens when you're trying to get to a Planned Parenthood and it, like, it's not accessible to you or it's not in your state, just for your own care? And like, um, it talks about health care, it talks about drug challenges, like challenges we have with drugs in our community, in our country.
And it does it in a way that like leads these characters to really scary situations, and they're just like right on the edge of it at all times, but then they can back away and they can back away because they have each other, they can back away because they're really smart.
Um, but it's also like dealing with this bigger theme of like one big mistake, just ruining your own life. Like that comes up time and time again. Yeah. But like, as you're watching it, you're like, “Oh, well it's not really your one big mistake. It's like an action happening in an environment, not allowing you to take like precautions or take care of yourself.” And I think that's so telling and so good, and they do it in a really funny way, like the details are on point.
And we talked about this with Moxie before, but like even the first scenes show you both of the characters, so Sunny and Lupe’s rooms, and the way that they set the scenes are just so good at indicating the personality types of these two characters. And, um, it's just really smart. It's a little tense. I had my other friend watch it and she's like, I got too stressed out.
CP: It is a little stressful, but that's kind of what has pushed the plot along. It's like, this like sort-of Odyssey situation you're talking about. Like we gotta, we gotta figure this out. We're ah, you know?
SB: The details though, too were so good. Um, like they show a bowling alley and it is very much like, rural bowling alley situation. Convenience store—check. You got that nailed. Um, the music—
CP: —The music was, so there was a moment when Nickelback was playing! I was like, what is this?
SB: I thought it was, was it Creed?
CP: Oh sure, it is Creed. It was Creed. I—they are one in the same in my mind. (Both SB and CP laugh)
SB: So appropriate—even the way they did oh, but like costume design, like these kids were in the same clothes the whole weekend. And that was like very good because sometimes things change. I don't know. It just felt realistic in a way that I think like other teen movies with a big party with like things gone awry don't. Ugh, it was beautiful. It's a beautiful movie and warrants, a couple of watches.
CP: I should watch it again. Yeah. I think the way you described it, like, all right. I love Saraya what you just shared about how, like it's tackling some like big issues and sort of, not the failure of these young women, but like how, like our culture around them is kind of failing them or like not supporting them in this moment.
Uh, and I wonder. I think that like, harsh critique works so well because it's also just so frickin’ funny, you know? And I wonder like when we were younger, I feel like we have this comedy in the movies we watched, but I don't think we have this type of critique. I don't think it was like this at all. Or maybe I just was so, I wasn't into that, but I just think what's happening now with movies like this and Moxie and, you know, um, Booksmart like, there's just so much more happening. And I think I just, I hope that like, the youth of America are better for it.
SB: I hope so—the thing is though, as we live in the time post-Olivia Rodrigo Sour, um, you know, how much of this is actually made for young folks at home, or is being gobbled up left and right by a 30 year olds?
CP: By millennials.
SB: I'm like, I'm like, do, are the youth even going to watch this? Like, is this real for them? I do not know. I don't know.
CP: I don't know. I don't know either. Oh, and I mean, I, we shouted out the Midwest before, but I just have to say again, I loved how this took place in the Midwest and kind of—and that is part of what ties into some of these issues at play in terms of accessing, um, Plan B uh, oh, it was just so, so good. So, so, so good.
SB: Um, there were some, like—it is very funny. I gotta say, like, even though it's heartbreaking, like it's also exploring relationships, the kind of lies we tell each other, or tell ourselves in friendship, or if the people we love the most and how, we're not sure how to share things, parts of ourselves with them at times.
And they do it in a really, really beautiful way, and also just really funny writing. So like, um, Sunny throws a party, and she comes up to her friend Lupe at one point and she says “Partying and drinking. I feel so stimulated. Is this what white privilege feels like?” And I'm like, there were lots of, actual LOL moments.
Um, uh, she walks into the bathroom and there's just like a boy. And then she's like, “Oh, I'm sorry.” He's like, “It's okay. I'm not going number one. But my eyes are.” ‘Cause he was having a bad time at the party. They need like, they have a paper map and they're like looking at it and they're trying to figure out. And then Sunny goes, “This just really needs like a zoom feature.”
Like a, and she was just like, oh, we're not even looking at the right—the right state. We can’t even figure this out. And then they finally see a light up and they're like, “Okay, we're saved.” And Lupe just takes the map and scrunches that like she does not fold it back up and she goes, “Fuck you paper!” and just throws it in the back. And then I'm like, this is just like, yes, yes, this energy all the way around, very into it, very into it.
Um, or like, oh, they did a good job of capturing like the rebellion that teens feel, but also, um, like still wanting to, I don't know, like live up to your parents' expectations. So at one point, like Lupe is told to wipe off her black lipstick and she walks outside and she puts into like a fake septum nose ring.
It’s like this moment of like “Haha got him.” And then she walks over, and then she kicks over a statue in the front yard and then she walks off screen and then she comes back and puts it back. And it was like, that is just like such an interesting detail that they chose to put into this. And there's a lot of those throughout the film that I really appreciate. Um, I don't know. I could talk forever about this. Um…
CP: It's a good one. We recommend it. We hope that you'll check it out. It is. Yeah. It's a—
SB: —There's one other thing I wanna say, another moment that was really specific. Yes. So at one point throughout the bowling alley, because of course there's a concert there and uh, oh, okay. Okay. Two comments, because when we've talked about Moxie before we were talking about like, oh, this love interest is so wonderful. Um, and like the reason he's wonderful is because you've got three older sisters. The love interest of this one apparently needs three older sisters too, to be a decent human being.
CP: The only way. It’s the only way.
SB: I just, what is that plot device, I cannot. Um, but in any case, uh, Sunny and those love interests are like at the bowling alley, they're sitting together, his friends are there and his friend turns to him and he's like, “Hey, Hunter. I got to poop. Want to come with?”, and Hunter’s like, “No, I don't think so.” and he's like, “Okay.
And he and his other friend go off and I'm like, “What just happened? Is this like a nod to girls going off to the bathroom together? Was this just to dry and get Sunny and Hunter some alone time? Was this a thing that boys do?” Like, I don't, I don't know. And I just, that was, it was also really cute, and weird. But yes, if you, if you watch it, we could talk about it forever, everything else. Um, please let us know,
CP: But you know what we should do, we should make a post about it in our Friends and Fans, Facebook groups, so if you also watch it, you can chat with us about it there that'd be fun.
SB: Yeah. I will say there's no like fat representation.
CP: Oh, there's one, isn't there one fat character and like another student who's like there two times?
SB: Apparently I don't even remember that.
CP: Am I misremembering? She says like nothing. She says one thing, maybe.
SB: I literally don't remember.
CP: So yeah, there’s virtually no representation. However, I was thinking about this—I don't think there's any like, overt fatphobia that stuck out to me.
SB: Accurate.
CP: So that is, so I guess we gotta be grateful for something in terms of fat stuff, and that’s one thing.
SB: That is, that is what it is. Yes. Yep. Um, okay, well, let's get onto something else. ‘Cause otherwise we'll just be going on for this for way too long.
CP: I think we should move into some more fat things. Oh, and, um, related to, I guess like things we have to dish about some of which are fat, um, there's some Twitter things we wanted to talk about, right?
SB: Yeah, for sure.
CP: What—so maybe we can start with your Twitter thing.
SB: My Twitter?
CP: The thing you brought up that you saw it on Twitter.
SB: So I am very fortunate. My mom was an educator for many years and she always shared really wonderful books with me. And one of my favorite books—which is actually, I mean, you don't have to have an educator mom to have this be your favorite book. I think a lot of people did as a child—but was a, The Very Hungry Caterpillar by Eric Carl.
Um, and Eric Carl passed away recently, which is kind of sad. I mean, very sad, but something interesting that I saw happening on social media was this excerpt from an interview with Eric Carl, um, where he was talking about how he had a fight with his publisher about the caterpillar, you know, eating, eating a lot and then having a stomachache.
And originally Carl, uh, didn't want that stomach ache to be an issue. He wanted the butterfly to eat as much as the—caterpillar to eat as much as it needed before transforming into a butterfly. And so I saw a lot of people sharing this out. I'm like, this is a really, um, like fat posi, like body posi situation going on. How, how wonderful, like I knew I loved these books, but like what a wild thing that he had fight against that.
And then what ended up happening on Twitter is I saw someone it's @Avithenaftali actually pointed out that like, “Hey, hold up, hold up, everybody. This is from the Paris Review.”
It was an April Fools article from the Paris Review where they made up this whole interview. So this didn't actually happen. And the whole joke was like about, you know, being body positive basically. And this was back in the day. And so it's just like a misattribution happening. The person who found it and started sharing it, um, actually was doing it because it was based on a book about Eric Carl, and like somebody missed, missed the ball or dropped the ball that's probably the phrase that we should say here—about doing their research because they put this interview into that book and it was inaccurate.
And so what's happening now is you've got people like the Smithsonian sharing this or the people all over the social media, all my friends, all the people in my circles who are like, “This is super rad, rest in peace.” It's like, yeah, it is super rad. It's also not accurate. And also like not true. It sucks that it's inaccurate and also like unfortunate for this man whose past to have this thing be attributed to him when it was a joke by The Paris Review in the first place. So yeah. Broke my heart, my broke my heart.
CP: Yeah. And just like, like you just said, like, it brings up a lot of stuff. Like. Especially when things are said about you posthumorously, you know, and you like, can't, you have no ability to respond. That's just, it's weird and hard, and it's like, of course you, when we see people that we've held in high esteem saying radical stuff, it's like, “Oh, so exciting!” And then it's so disappointing to know that that wasn't the case at all. And also still, we can still hold them in high esteem. It's just like, not in this way, you know?
SB: I don't think it's a big enough name for people to realize and like, walk that back. So I wonder how much more profusely that would be shared or how profusely it was shared, and people will never know that it was a weird, cruel misquote.
CP: Yeah. Wow, man.
SB: So Twitter, that's Twitter for you. Yeah. What's your Twitter thing?
CP: Another Twitter thing, which is just, we don't need to go too much into it, but yeah. Well it caught me off guard.
So, um, you know, I tweet lots of stuff. My distaste for Noom, my thoughts and feelings about Criminal Minds.
SB: Oh my God. Just this podcast.
CP: And also, and also some fat stuff. Yeah. So basically, yeah everything we talk about here. Um, and I saw, and I don't really spend, I'm not, I like, no one cares about me enough on Twitter for my stuff to get very much mileage. Uh, you know, like sometimes I'll have a few people interested in what I'm saying, but for the most part, not a lot of retweets, not a lot of communication. So when there is, I like, notice it.
And something I tweeted a year ago about, um, just the idea of like, not all fat people eat more than thin people. Like that's not the whole story here, like that's not how this works, exactly. Uh, something to that effect, uh, that I posted, yeah, at least over a year ago, um, I saw had been retweeted and then was like, kind of getting a lot of traction. And I’m like, “Oh no, what's this about?”
And so I found who retweeted it and some of the people commenting and other things, and I just like stumbled upon what I think we refer to as “eating disorder Twitter,” um, and was just so taken aback by the, the types of folks that were sharing, like really hateful, fatphobic images and information. Um, and of course, like, you know, I can't speak to this, um, with any kind of eloquency or authority because I have no real with experiences with eating disorders. Um, but it's just so hard to see so many folks who appear from their bios to be quite young and also quite “with it” in lots of other ways. Like, happy to share their pronouns in their bio, happy to like hashtag Black Lives Matter, happy to do other things that to me read as like a really social justice focused person, to see folks like that, sharing just like truly blatant, hateful, fatphobic imagery, and information.
It really caught me off guard and it was just really sad and like, when I think about the kind of—when I envision a fatphobic troll, you know, like “who is this fatphobic person?”, that bio that I just described is not that person, and so it was just a really hard thing to think about. And also like there, I mean, there was—I don't enjoy people being cruel to me on the internet, but for the most part, like whatever, I'm fine. Um, but it was just this whole uncovering this whole community that really caught me off guard and was, yeah. So that's my, my Twitter news.
SB: Yeah. I mean, okay. So, Cat and I just did a presentation for, um, the place I work at actually, and the larger like parent organization there. And something that I think applies directly to this is actually from Aubrey Gordon's book, What We Don't Talk About When We Talk About Fat, which is where she’s—
CP: —Great book—
SB: —Great book! Go listen to it. I mean, it’s basically what we talk about here, but she has some really good data behind it and specifically mentioned the Harvard implicit bias survey, which was, you know, over nine years featuring like 4 million individuals participating in it.
And like, what she found or what the, I guess, the survey and the research found is that over time implicit bias on race and sex, like decreased and, um, like other things that they were looking at, like age and, um, uh, disability and things like that kind of remain stable as far as like being anti- any of those identities and how, but however, in those last years, anti-fat and pro-thin biases increased by 40%. And it's like, the slowest-changing self-disclosed attitude. And I think that's what we're seeing here too. And I was talking with a friend of mine who works with a young person who's in college—(Saraya laughs) I just dated myself by saying that a young, uh, I college, a college student and this college student was like, “What do you think of the word fatphobic or fatphobia?”
And my friend was like, “Oh yeah, it's bad. It's bad. And it's, it's true.” But this person was like, “Yeah, but I was watching TLC’s My 600 Pound Life.” And like, “Yeah, but, like people could just take better care of themselves.” It's like, this is a really up-and-up person who's like very with it in regards to gender, sex, um, racial identity, all these other things. And yet, for some reason, fatphobia or anti-fat bias I should say is just really rocketing up there. And I don't know why!
CP: Yeah. Well, and you know, this isn't, this aligns with things we said before, how we can be and something that's come up time and time again on the podcast and came up maybe most recently in our conversation with Kandace, I think on our last episode.
SB: Yeah.
CP: Just the idea that like you can, we can be in spaces that are like working to be so liberatory and really radical and, um, you know, with a strong focus on liberation in a lot of ways and still fatphobia and anti-fat bias just like, finds its way to creep in, uh, in, in really surprising and, um, yeah, surprising in the worst way type of, type of ways.
SB: Which like we know on social media exists, but like stumbling onto a whole population that you didn’t realize exists. It’s just like, oh my god.
CP: It's very alarming. Yeah. So alarming and just like, oh, young people! Like, I feel, I just feel so sad about what's happening here. And I don't think that me as a person has a hold, I don't think that you care to listen to anything I have to say or do, and to say, I don't feel like I can influence this at all.
It was just hard. Um, but yeah, I think I love that you shared that, uh, that information from Aubrey Gordon's book, and I love that you shared that in our presentation the other week. Cause I think it is just, something that many people aren't thinking about and, um, something that everyone should have on their radar.
SB: Yeah. I mean, you who are listening right now, we appreciate you tuning in. And just because we understand that, like you are part of this conversation and knowledgeable, and I think, you know, if it ever comes up and you have to either stand up for yourself or other people in your area who are being impacted negatively by anti-fat bias. I mean, like use this, use this data!
Because it's not what we kind of closed out by saying is like, you know, we are two fat people who are coming to give this presentation on fatphobia, anti-fat bias, like diet culture, uh, fat liberation, body positivity, but like, yeah, it directly impacts us, but like just take a look at how harmful it is to everybody in the world. Oy vey, oy vey. Well, thank you for listening, I guess I should say to, to you right now. But, I don't know what other fat stuff did you want to talk about?
CP: Saraya, we got to talk about Shrill, but we've been talking for so long already.
SB: Can we make it brief, you think?
CP: I don't know.
SB: Listen, we don’t have ads, okay. We don't need to couch time to like, have you listen to Noom or whatever. So like, maybe, I think we can have a quick, a quick chat about it. I loved it! I don't know.
CP: I loved it. The third and final season of Shrill came out just the other week. We were both really excited about it and it delivered.
SB: It delivered in a big way. The relationships that you got to see grow and develop and get messy and get lovely and get messy again. It just is so good.
And I think, okay. If you've listened to any of our episodes before, this whole podcast is predicated on friendship. Absolutely. That's why we like movies like Booksmart. And I would say like the friendship between Annie and, um, Fran is just so remarkable. And one of the characters in this season, who's new to this season, um, just talks about how like, mischievous they are with each other.
And I was like, that is the hallmark of such a good friendship, where you can be goofy and a little mischievous and like build on each other. And it's like, yes, that is why I love them together so much. Like they just vibe on this other level and the chemistry between them is immaculate. And also, as they recognize, as they're going up, needs to change, you know, as they grow together, they need to change. And so I think that was a really beautiful way to kind of end this story of Shrill as we know it. Um, I don't want to give too much away, but I really liked the ending. I know other people thought it was kind of left undone.
CP: Yeah. We actually asked on Instagram, if some of y'all had thoughts about the show and one person did mention that they love the season and loved all of the challenges, the kind of the messy stuff that Annie had to go through, but then they said “That ending? No!”, and I will admit, I was—it felt a little anticlimactic, and also I wouldn't have had it any other way. I really like, I really like how it wrapped up, especially for a season close. Um, it just really left us kind of imagining lots of different possibilities for them and, and really centering that friendship between, um, Fran and Annie and I, yeah. So while it wasn't what I expected, I did really like the ending.
SB: It's interesting to have—’cause I know, I don't know if we've talked about it, but. There's this common feeling once you finish a book or a series that you've gotten so enveloped in these people's lives that you're like, oh, “What is my life like, how do I, what's my next thing that I like, latch on to, or get to enjoy?” And the way that they ended this almost made it like, uh, like real for me, because it was like, oh yeah, this is gonna continue, and you probably won't know what it is, but it's not like a severing of the experience. ‘Cause it's not all tied up. And you're like, oh, well, they'll continue to live their lives like real people, even though I would say all of the characters are just like, over the top, over the top in so many ways, especially when you think about the work environment that they’re in.
CP: Yeah.
SB: So ridiculous, absolutely bonkers of a work environment. Um, and just like the reactions—but like you said, that this is the most realistic representation you've seen, in a show out there for you. What specifically were you referring to when we talked about that?
CP: For me, this is just the most relatable fat story that I have seen or read. Um, I, and that's like for me, this like fat white lady who is, I don't know, and not, I wouldn't say I'm like Annie in a lot of ways, but the way, the things we get to see from Annie and from Fran, I just, I don't think I've seen in any other book or movie or TV show. Like, it's just very honest and real.
And I think I see this showing up—this season, I felt that a lot with all, like all of the relationship dynamics, we got to see. We got to see this like. Well, this guy that we thought was like really into her that tried to convince her that she just like had misinterpreted the whole situation. We got to see a resurgence of the like schlubby ex from season one.
SB: Yeah.
CP: You know, we got to see her go on this really awful blind date moment with another, with this character who's also fat and like how that kind of worked. And then it sort of, that sort of resolved itself as the season went on. I just, oh, the ways that like we got into those situations, those situations could have happened to anybody, but being a fat person in that scenario changes it a bit. And I don't think I've seen that nuance in other, in, in other—other dynamics of other shows where there aren't fat characters.
SB: Yeah. We all see the nuance in the character development as like making big ass, mistakes and mistakes in the realm of like these one-to-one relationships or interpersonal relationships. Like Annie makes a big mistake in visiting like this, um, separatist ranch that's like super racist, and how to deal with the blowback of that when she talks with her friends who are Black and like what they have to do with that. Um, and it's like, yeah, please do talk about that. That's really important to consider.
Um, also just like queer love on this show is so beautiful. And so, I mean, I don't, like you said, I know it's been out there, but I haven't seen it shown in this way, like showing differences in class, showing differences in race and like, you know, bridging that and moving at a different pace than another person, like emotionally and maturely. Um, it's just really beautiful.
CP: Yeah, it was so, so good. Um, some other folks on Instagram, uh, I would love to share their thoughts cause I know we'll have thoughts about their thoughts. Um, one person said that they want a season four.
SB: Yeah.
CP: And as much as I would—I mean, yes, absolutely. I would love to see this go on and on and on. And also I think there's just huge merit to stopping on a high point, you know, to ending on this beautiful high moment instead of like, going on for seasons and seasons and like letting it get old or not as exciting. And I wonder—and actually, maybe you've mentioned this before, Saraya—what's next for these, these writers, these actors? Like what more can we see from them?
SB: Yeah. Well actually, I think we've talked about SNL on the show a couple of times too, but like Sudi Green and obviously Aidy Bryant were on or are on SNL and Sudi Green is a writer that I really like, so I know, I think she's leaving SNL. Um, but there are so many other really comedic people, like, okay. So do you know the character, um, at the workplace who has like the blonde hair and she's like, real weird.
CP: he's like kind of mousey. Yeah.
SB: Her name is Jo Firestone. She's one of my favorite comics ever. So like, I hope she's going big places. Uh, Patty Harrison is just like, oh, all these people are so, so good. And so yeah, whatever they go on to do, like, this is why you talk about names. Whenever I talk about projects is because like, I just want to see where they go because whatever they do next, I'm going to most likely enjoy because they're really just building up a bigger and bigger, uh, portfolio of work that if I'm into this, I'll probably be into that. I like your voice. I like what you're doing and yeah, good point.
And also, I mean, we had talked about like the Easter egg of the situation where, um, in the book and then like Lindy's real life—
CP: —Oh my gosh, yes, yes, yes, yes, this!—
SB: She ends up with the character who wasn’t Amadi from Shrill, but like is a version of Amadi. Um, and so I fully anticipated this, this story wrapping up with them, getting together,
CP: Me too. From season one, I thought that was gonna happen.
SB: And like, that like, it does give you that vibe throughout it consistently. Yeah.
CP: And I think like, to, just to reiterate for folks that maybe aren't familiar with this, but like Lindy West’s real life husband—Lindy West who wrote Shrill whom this, this series is based around, I guess the book is, it's based on the book, which she wrote about her life. Her real life husband has like a lot of things in common with the character Amadi on the show, and therefore Saraya and I, and probably lots of other people, were sure they were going to get together.
SB: Yeah. But the way the show ended is that it leaves room for that to potentially happen. Yeah. And I love that. I love that this was like, uh, like one point in time of this character's life and we don't know what's gonna happen, but you've set the stage for my imagination to go there and like build this out, and I kind of love it. I kind of feel like I don't need this story to be told to me anymore because I can see myself represented enough in it or I can see other, other, um, it's built a foundation for me to understand what the course could take from this. And also like, maybe not, but I love it. And I didn't expect that with how, how—I don't know, there wasn't closure. It wasn't wrapped up in a pretty ribbon at the end of it.
CP: Yeah. Okay, there's one other thing that I think we should talk about because it was mentioned on Instagram.
Okay. Um, someone said they loved this season. It was their favorite season. And then they said that it was painful to watch Annie mistreat the blind date at first. So I think we should talk about that.
SB: Whew. Internalized anti-fat bias is awful.
CP: So for those of you who haven't seen it, or don't remember what happens, Amadi—actually the character that we thought Annie was going to get with—um, he sets any up with his friend who like, just got out of a relationship. He's like, this is the best guy I know, y'all are gonna get along so well. And Annie shows up at the restaurant and we see this guy and he's fat and she responds really negatively.
SB: Yeah. She basically thinks that Amadi just set them up together because they're both fat. And she looks at every cue to inform that of being true.
CP: Yeah. And then it goes downhill from there.
SB: It's so bad.
CP: It's really, really bad. It's just, it's terrible.
SB: Doesn’t she get a text? Like she means to text to somebody else, but then texts him instead, oh Lord.
CP: It's just, oh god, it is, it is awful. Um, yeah. And I guess like while so, okay. One, I'm so happy this scene was in here too. Annie of course acted terribly, and it's like hard and painful to watch. And also, I get that feeling of like, what the fuck? You just find the first fat friend you had and set us up together like that, I could just, oh my god. Like when she like laid eyes and this guy—and actually he's like quite cute, and we get to see more and it's great.
SB: He’s very cute. He’s an absolute babe.
CP: Truly, but in that moment, it's like, and of course, like, that's what we're, maybe this is how we're supposed to respond, but I was just like, (gasps) it hit me. I just knew exactly how she was feeling in that moment, and I was like mad and sad on her behalf and also not okay with how things proceeded, but like, I just, that feeling felt so real to me.
SB: Yeah. Like it was bad. She was bad. She was bad.
CP: She was, it was bad behavior. It was not okay. Um, and also like, there is no excuse for any person to mistreat any person, you know—
SB: —You understand.
CP: And how. I just wonder, I just, yeah, it's just hard for me to believe that that wasn't part of the scenario in his—her—in Amadi’s mind setting them up and also like, yeah, I don't know. I could go on and on. I don't feel like I'm, I feel like I'm defending Annie and I'm not trying to—
SB: No, no, but it's like particularly gruesome her behavior when you see some of her other dates before that and that, and just how much leniency she gave them when they were truly heinous.
CP: Absolutely.
SB: The reason why I don't wanna date, honestly, was also on the screen there for us.
CP: Right there.
SB: I do have to say though, that character, his name is Will in the show. Um, the actor who plays him is Cameron Britton, who I think is better known for the show, Mindhunter on Netflix. And he plays Edmund Kemper who is very scary and very weird and gross and bad, bad, bad person. So I am so pleased that, uh, Cameron Britton got to be featured in, as like the heartthrob or like a love interest in is actually like the best dude.
CP: The best dude. He's just like, so hot, so sweet, so just endearing. Yeah. Yeah. So I didn't realize he was on another show. I have not watched that show.
SB: He’s like, the opposite of this character and I think for like fat actors, it's so easy to get typecast. So I was really excited to see him come together. Um, or have people make that active decision to feature him and show his like range of ability too. So yeah.
CP: Well, this is a show that I look forward to watching over and over again.
SB: Yeah. You'll have to cause there's no more.
CP: Cause there's no more. Uh, and just like we said earlier, I’m just really excited to see what comes, um, from these folks that we love, who created and starred in this show. I'm especially interested to pay attention, to see, um, what Lolly goes on to do the actress who plays Fran.
And then I'm always have my eyes on Lindy West who wrote Shrill. I'm just like. “Where is she going? What's she doing? Was she writing?” I wanna watch it all, I wanna read it all. I just want, I want anything she creates. I mean, I, I read that terrible, that wasn't a terrible book, but the book about all the movies that I hadn't even seen, but she wrote it. So I was like, give me this book, you know what I'm saying? Like—
SB: —Well, she, her voice is so perfect because like, even, so you gave Shrill the book to your mom and you're like, “It's funny!” And then you asked me like, “Isn't it funny?” I was like, “No, it's pretty sad, but Lindy is funny.” And so the way mean like showcase things really beautiful and also helps you work through some really difficult concepts in situations, so.
CP: And you know, that kind of aligns with what we just talked about with Plan B and maybe this is just the kind of person people we are like with media we enjoy, but this idea of like being able to really strongly critique what's going on, but to offer a lot of comedy to like help us get there and like help us not have to be so heartbroken about it all, right? To like, acknowledge all of the bullshit and also be able to giggle about some things that are just like, kind of silly along the way.
SB: Yeah. And I think we really uphold a lot of media that does a good job of telling different stories, right? Like. Certainly, uh, stories we don't hear on a regular basis, but doing a good job of that. Like I think our critique of Moxie, which we talked about, oh, way back in the day, now it feels like a, was that like a, tried to tell too many stories. And so it kind of fell apart in doing that, whereas like Shrill or, um, Plan B, like they do a good job because they only focus on the specific people to get the nuance of who they are, but they aren't the people we've seen time and time again on the screen too. So yeah.
CP: Yeah, agree.
SB: Well—
CP: —Well, we got to wrap this up, my friend.
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SB: This is the end of the podcast. Now. Not something more ominous, just like a little ominous until you revisit your podcast feed again.
CP: ‘Til then you can visit our website www.matteroffatpod.com where you'll find show notes, transcripts, info about Matter of Fat, access to older episodes and information on upcoming Podlucks.
SB: If one of your love languages is gift giving, you can give us the gift of funds through Fat Cash. Find us on Venmo @matteroffatpod. And of course we have all the details about this on our website. This episode, special shout outs, go to Harry and Amy for sending some fat cash our way. Ah, thank you so much, you two. We appreciate you. And we appreciate the love.
CP: As always please subscribe, rate, and review to the podcast wherever you catch Matter of Fat. We would love to shout you out in our next outro, if you give us a review and of course share and tag us on social media, whenever you can.
SB: Until next time when we're back with another episode of—
SB + CP: —Matter of Fat.
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