S3E3 - Ani Janzen, human dignity before diet science, + Stacey Abrams- Transcript

Released August 26th, 2020. For complete episode info, visit this page!

[INTRO MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]

Cat Polivoda: Welcome to Matter of Fat, a body positive podcast with Midwest sensibilities.

Hi! I'm Cat Polivoda, a local fat feminist, shop owner, and you know, as weird as this summer has been, I am a little sad to see it ending. I'm joined by my cohost and producer, Saraya Boghani.

Saraya Boghani: Hi, I'm Saraya. I'm a fat, multiracial, Minneapolitan millennial who hasn't enjoyed that sweet, soft serve DQ ice cream yet this summer, and it's a damn shame.

CP: A damn shame, but you got time! (laughs) Just a little, just a little.

SB: True!

CP: On Matter of Fat, we're here to talk about the cultural politics of fat liberation with a Midwest perspective. Let's start it out with—

CP+SB: —the Fat Dish!

[TRANSITION MUSIC]

CP: It's time for The Fat Dish where we share--or dish--about what's going on with us. Okay so first and foremost, WAP.

SB: WAP.

CP: During a recent work time over FaceTime, Saraya insisted I watch Cardi B. and Megan Thee Stallion's WAP video and, woah hoh, wowza. I am here for it! The outfits, the dancing. The vulgarity, I mean in the best sense of the word it is EXPLICT and I love it.

SB: I am so pleased that you love it. So I was alerted to WAP by Twitter and outrage, which honestly, is the same thing at this point. (Both laugh) They're a synonym. In any case, people were talking about a certain sister from the matriarch Kardashian empire and like, what was she doing there? So I had to get in on it. So I head over to listen.tidal.com— (Both laugh)

CP: —Not sponsored—

SB: Listen, I’m a Tidal girl, not sponsored, just truly, truly there for HOVA. Okay. So I went over there to watch, and was visually and sonically delighted. It is SAUCY, y'all, and that's like a very tame description.

CP: Sure is. So as we do, Saraya and I have spent every day since then sending each other our fave lyrics and like, internet culture offshoots that include the song. Some great ones have been: a wet ass pupusa—with gooey cheese coming out of it—a wet and gushy tres leche cake, and (laughs) ok I really loved the USPS fancam set to WAP. I mean, amazing.

SB: It is amazing. There's so much creativity and discussion around this. I mean, okay. So Ben Shapiro told on himself pretty badly through this—

CP: —YUP!—

SB: —but there've been edits of him reading the song along with the music, which is beautiful. One of my favorite tweets actually comes from Twitter user @FeelingFisky who types: “In the hit song WAP, when Megan Thee Stallion proclaims, 'When I ride the dick, I'ma spell my name,' she is advocating for community-based literacy programs, focusing on one-to-one and small group learning opportunities. In this essay, I will--” and then, I don't (Cat laughs) I don't know how the tweet ends, it probably ends like that, but like my phone fell to the floor due to my quaking laughter. It was SO good.

CP: So good, TOO good. Okay. I would like to share with my favorite line is when Cardi B says--let's see if I can like, get it out right--she says, "I want you to park that big Mac truck right in this little garage." (Saraya laughs) I mean, AHHH! It's so perf--too good.

SB: Oh my God, let me tell you a thing. Every time I hear that lyric, the part that gets me, is the train horn right after it. (Cat laughs) I would LOVE to be a fly on the wall during those conversations during production, like how did they land on that specific horn sound? It just sends me over the edge every single time.

CP: It's just so loud! I mean, it's not a truck horn. It's like, a train horn!

SB: Yeah, right? It's not really--maybe it is a big Mac truck, I need to do more research—

CP: —and maybe there's more to it that we're not--I don't know. But yes, it's loud.

SB: Let's pull up Genius. Let's figure out—no, we're not gonna do that. Also, I will say this is such a summer anthem, and like a good indicator of how cooped up people are feeling; I've seen a lot of chatter about how people wish they could be at the club with this song playing. Oh my God, yes. Like I have never been a clubgoer myself, but I would in a heartbeat to have that summer moment. And summer's almost over. I can't.

CP: It really--so, yes, this like really is a summer song and yeah, summer is basically over like, I don't know. How did that come so soon?

SB: I know, I know. I found myself on the like Cedar Lake trail the other day--which I mentioned in our newsletter—

CP: —Uh huh!—

SB: —Yeah, we've got a new segment, it's called the Matter of Fat Rec Center where we share some recommendations, and Cat and I wrote about our favorite outdoor spaces. So like, real talk with y'all. I'm not a big newsletter person. You heard it here first, and you'll probably hear about it many more times, because this is my podcast and I can talk about what I want, and I want to talk about how I don't like newsletters, I guess? I don't know.

CP: Mhmm, mhmm.

SB: Okay, man. (Cat laughs) However, I do like our newsletter, and I know Cat and the team put a lot of thought into it. So if you haven't checked it out yet, I would recommend--like the rec center--you do so. And I also deeply understand if you haven't, this is very conflicting for me. So just like go read it, maybe.

CP: I mean, you know, different episode, same deal. I worked really hard on something on the computer, now I am begging you to go look at it and yes, I know like the world's tiniest violin is like playing for me as I tell you this. (laughs)

SB: We need Bernie Sanders to come out and say, "I am asking you to go look at this newsletter." That's really what it is.

CP: Maybe I can make that meme.

SB: Oh I’m sure. It's very easy to do.

Um, anyways, back to the story. So I was on this trail and I found myself very emotional, just a 30-something year old, quietly tearing up whilst traipsing through lush greenery. (Cat: Ooh.) Yeah, it is kind of sad, but I say this because one, it was kind of unusual. So I guess it's like noteworthy and deserves to be in the Fat Dish. Two, I think talking about emotions should be done regularly.

CP: Yes!

SB: Yes, exactly. And three, this specific trail has been a coping the mechanism for me throughout the pandemic. So we're talking about like, figuring out time passing, summer anthem, summer's almost over, but in the early days with the shelter-in-place order, we were allowed time outside and I, for reasons unknown to me, decided to try out this trail, and it has a paved area and the road was blocked off, but honestly, people were not covering their faces or staying far enough away from me for my tastes. So, no no, one day I decided—

CP: —You got out of there— (Both laugh)

SB: —Yes, I kept walking—

CP: —Was forced into the woods!

SB: I was forced into the neighborhood. So like, I was like, I'm gonna figure out a way around this lake, today. There's this like, I have my hours outside, I'm just gonna make it happen. So I wandered into this random neighborhood and I was like, hey, this is nice. And then I stumbled across this like dirt path that's forested, and it felt like stepping into Narnia. It was just so separate. It was beautiful; there weren't any Mister Tumnuses around, um, but it was quiet and removed and I just felt like I could finally breathe for a moment.

And at that time, everything was pretty dead still, but it was so beautiful and cold, and each week something changed. So I got to witness, you know, more flowers growing, more animals, more greenery. And now if I didn't know that the path was there, I would probably miss it just due to how green and lush everything is.

Um, yeah. So, I mean, yes, nature changes, seasons change, but this time in nature has been a way for me to really witness the passing of time. And like, I can't recount how many times I would have dropped it to WAP in the club. So it feels really important to see how the world spins on through nature, instead.

CP: Honestly, that's all very beautiful. Yes, both WAP and the great outdoors. That's lovely. And, you know, witnessing the season change is also something that our guest Ani talks about in her interview.

SB: Oh, that's right! That'll be perfect. Also we're Midwestern, so we have to talk about the weather.

CP: Oh yeah. (laughs)

SB: So while I've been emoting outside, what have you been up to, Cat?

CP: Um, okay. So I guess one thing that's new with me is that I'm in this Accelerating Success class with WomenVenture, and it's been pretty great. You know, I haven't done a class for awhile, so it's making me do homework and stuff, which is all very good for me. WomenVenture is a local nonprofit that helps women start and grow their businesses, and I actually took a class with them in 2017 that helped set me up for my shops' brick and mortar opening that fall. It was just like really good for me.

This class has a strong focus on business financials and marketing, so like, learning more about both of them and then using them as tools to support business growth. I'm really loving it so far, and like, it's totally on Zoom, so that feels good and safe and just more accessible for me, you know, easier to show up to at nine. And also I like the group. I was like, kind of, I don't know I was--I didn't really know what to expect, but I really enjoy the other people that are in the class with me.

It's like, it's, in this moment, business growth for me, feels so delayed and kind of far away because of the pandemic, so being in this class that just feels really nice to be able to like, refocus on these plans. It's serving to remind me it's all still possible.

SB: Oh, that's cool! I love a WomenVenture moment for you. That's wonderful.

CP: Thank you! Um, I guess maybe another update in terms of like, business in the time of COVID: I started doing some very careful and controlled IRL options at my shop, which has felt good so far. So, I'm doing shopping appointments and then also style sessions are back. Um, and while it's very different to be like, masked up and cleaning a lot between folks and then short-term quarantining clothes, it's been really nice to see people in real life--from six feet away of course.

SB: Okay, that sounds lovely, and also I want you to say more about the quarantining clothes; I don’t know why, but that seems very interesting to me. (Cat laughs)

CP: Maybe it's a weird way to say it, and I don't mean like, the two week quarantine that people go on, you know, it's just that after garments are tried on, I try to set them aside for at least 48 hours before someone would try them on again. You know, there's varying info on how long COVID might last on fabric surfaces, but like the general information feels like it's around two days.

Some shops I've seen have opted to like, steam each garment to try to kill germs and then like put them right back out in circulation. But for me, I think letting them sit just feels better. So that's what we've been doing.

SB: Okay. I dig that and also appreciate the insight into this business decision.

CP: Oh, thanks for asking!

SB: It feels like a really well thought out win, which, we need little wins like that to help us get through the general state of alarm, and I'm just gonna gesture wildly at the room. I mean, okay, off the top of my head, we got tornadoes, the USPS, and, uh, it feels like the threads of democracy are thinner than ever before, and I have little control over any of it. More control over the tornadoes than anything else, honestly.

CP: I hear all of that and okay, specifically, the weather. Can we just like, take a Minnesota moment again to discuss the weather? I don't think I've ever thought like, "is this the end times" more than I have than during 2020?!

SB: Oh my God.

CP: Recently it's like we had this hour--more than an hour long--like, continual lightening storm. I mean, there were tornado sirens recently on a separate day. It's just like, oh, it was wild to me. And then also, yes, the USPS being sabotaged as well as our democracy. Yeah. So, go on Saraya.

SB: Yeah. Okay. Yes. Now that we've named all the alarms, let's talk about the wins.

So people say vote, and I think there is power in that, but not enough, so another little moment of winning for me has been watching local elections. I've been more involved than ever before, and then also conversely realized just how little I understand about politics. Uh, like for example, what's going on with defunding the MPD, and city council pushing a valid decision over to the charter commission, them holding off on that decision, it's just like, nonsense. Like, how does anyone but a seasoned politician ford the river of information disinformation happening at all times? I just, I do not know.

It goes back to what Alex said--and I'm very deeply paraphrasing--but in the last episodes interview, he basically said that we need to look for and uphold people who want to do the work to keep us safe. Um, I fortunately felt like I could vote for those folks in the most recent primary election, and that felt so empowering.

CP: Yeah.

SB: At the same time, because I share identities and/or assumed values with someone does not mean that their position of power will result in what I think it will.

CP: Also, yeah.

SB: Yeah. We are living in complex times, my friends. Uh, I've also really enjoyed taking us all on a roller coaster ride, not to Valleyfair—

CP: —NEVER!—

SB: —But through the Fat Dish, so I will leave us on a happy note.

CP: Yes, yes, yes! Tell us.

SB: Okay. Summer's almost over, yes, we've established that, but my family has been growing tomatoes and peppers and flowers and so many goodies, and it's so magical. I've never been a cut flowers person; I think a few years ago I heard a Leslie Jones bit about, you know, how awful it is to give someone something that's dead, so they can just like, watch it wither away and die.

CP: Honestly, yup.

SB: Again, paraphrased, but I think that mindset just really lasted in me. But right now in my home, I've got some glads and some daisies and other flowers all over, and they remind me of my father taking the time to pick the seeds, plant them, water them, care for them, and then my mom picking the best ones and transporting them to me.

And, you know, seeing those bursts of color all around is love. Eating the veggies they've grown is love. And I am just, I'm so, gosh darn lucky to have that type of love in my life. And I wanna extend that to all of you! What are you grateful for? Where are you getting love in your life? And like, what are the big and small ways that that love can manifest and--wow, jeez, I warned y'all, I warned y'all, I'm emotional. I am an emotional being.

CP: (swoons) You are, and I love it, and I love all--oh, I just love all of that. And honestly, those are some good journal prompts over here Saraya, so thank you.

SB: You are welcome! I am not a journal keeper, it's not my strong suit, but who knows? Um, but yeah, so that's my little happy, happy note. What, what do you have for a happy fun note, Cat?

CP: Okay. Something fun and a lot less poetic than what you've just given us.

So per uszh, been listening to pods, lots of TV, but really it's been kind of random and, um, I don't have a lot of good recommendations to share, but I will share one sort of trash—but very fun—TV development.

So my besties convinced me to get into this season of Big Brother All-Stars. It just started at the beginning of August and I am loving it. It's such a silly distraction to like, to watch, but then like over-analyze everything with them. I also got CBS All Access for it, so, okay. So I can watch the episodes live if I have time or after if I don't, but then I'm a little ashamed to admit I've also been tuning into the live feeds, like, kind of a lot? It's fascinating!

And okay, I guess I feel like I have to kind of share where I'm at. So for any of you Big Brother fans out there—uh, the, I don't know, four of you who are listening, two of whom are Karen and Margo—um, here are my favorite folks and like my favorite alliance right now, which could even change between like, you know, when we record this and when we air this. But right now, my fave is the Kaysar, Janelle, Bayleigh, and then also maybe Day group. I also must share that I strongly dislike Memphis.

SB: You heard it here, folks, she really dislikes Memphis.

CP: Oh my hot takes! I really dislike him, ugh, I don't like him at all!

SB: Oh my God, all you Big Brother fans, you know who you are. It's not me, I don't even know--like, everything you just said is nothing to me, but I love that you love it.

CP: Thank you for indulging me in this. And also, I'm sure there's a few of you out there. It's just like a summertime thing, Big Brother.

SB: We gotta figure out that Venn diagram, right? Let us know. Who in Matter of Fat and who in Big Brother Twitter, like where does it overlap and who are you?

CP: I maintain that there has to be at least some overlap.

SB: Yeah!

CP: Okay—

SB: —Like Karen, and Margo, and maybe some others. We'll figure it out.

CP: So, um, I think we can even continue with another happy note, which is our interview.

SB: Oh yeah!

[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]

SB: Y'all have been waiting for this one! In this episode, we talk with Ani Janzen, whose name should bring some bells if you're familiar with the podcast, and/or have been tuning into the Twin Cities Fat Community and other rad fat things happening in the Midwest. If you're unfamiliar, this is a wonderful way for you to get to know her and the work she's doing.

I met Ani through Cat, actually, at a pop-up at B Resale years ago. We can say that now, years ago.

CP: Oh, I mean it was probably at least like four years, almost five years ago? I remember that exact pop-up.

Yeah, so we've mentioned Ani and her work a lot here on the pod, because both she and her work are so deeply rooted in our local fat community. I've had the privilege of working alongside Ani on some projects over the last few years, including the Twin Cities Fat Community Facebook group that's mentioned in this interview; we started it together back in 2016. Um, and just a note about that, that like, while this group is still thriving and you can, you know, at any time go request to be part of it, Ani and some other fab folks are now in charge of it, and I'm not in a group admin role anymore.

SB: I just want to give you all an inkling of what you're about to hear, but honestly, we should just get into it instead. So just a heads-up: we've got the mature rating on the podcast because we do like some well-timed swears.

CP: Oh yeah.

Ani, we're so happy you're with us today!

Ani Janzen: Thank you, I'm so excited to be here with you both!

CP: We'd like to start how we always do, which is asking you to tell us your story as a matter of fat.

AJ: Yeah. This is such a good question, and I love that you ask this on every episode, and I always think about like, what's my story gonna be, what IS my story, as a matter of fat?

Um, and I think it for sure starts when I'm a kid. I was a fat kid and I think that informs a lot of my experiences as a fat person. I was, um, I was a fat kid who was like objectively fat, if that makes sense? (C: Yeah.) I know a lot of people have that history of like feeling fat and thinking they're fat or being like, just slightly larger than their peers, and then looking back on photos and being like, "Oh, I really wasn't that fat. Um, you know, I grew a little bit faster than others, or I was slightly bigger than others, but that doesn't really fall into the category of fat."

I was, I was fat. I'm maybe like, one size larger now than I was when I was in high school. Um, and I went to a very large high school and I was one of the very largest people in the school. So, like it was very obvious to me how different I was because of my size. And yet, I think that it did not highly affect my abilities to engage with my life at that point in time? I definitely walk in life with a lot of other privileges as someone who's white and cisgender and came from like a high socioeconomic background, and so I think those things definitely helped me a lot. And that I just also have like some ingrained personality traits that allowed me to like, not give a fuck. Oh, can we swear on this? Shoot. (All laugh)

SB: We don't swear a lot, but yeah, we have the explicit marking, so you—

CP: —I love swearing. I'm hear for it.

AJ: Um, yes, so I really managed to somehow, like, not care very much what people--I mean, I definitely cared what people thought some of the time, but I managed to do a lot of things that I think a lot of fat kids did not feel comfortable doing. I joined sports teams. Um, I joined an improv group. I'm not an actor, but I did do that for a little bit in high school. Um, I was like—I wasn't a popular kid, but I had a ton of friends, and I wasn't afraid to like go places. I went to clubs. Um, I dunno, I guess you could say I had like a very like normal kid upbringing, and really didn't let my weight define me a lot.

It actually wasn't until I actually, like, lost a bunch of weight that my weight started to define who I was. And so as I got into my early twenties, I, um, you know, for whatever reasons, it wasn't an intentional weight loss pursuit, even though at that time I was in a very weight-centric mind frame. I, um, I just kind of like lost a lot of weight, like a lot, like many, many pants sizes.

And it was obviously very noticeable both to me and to others. And I got lots of compliments, I got a promotion at work, um, which obviously wasn't entirely due to like me losing weight, but I think it played a significant role, because as I gained weight back while having that same job, all of the sudden, like all of my skills and abilities came back into question.

And so I didn't have like a degree, and I got a job that usually has a bachelor's degree. Um, and then all of the sudden, once I was fat again, that was called into question like, ah, should she really have this job? She doesn't have a degree. And yet I had been doing it for like three years, very successfully.

SB: Wow.

AJ: Yeah. And so that experience, like I thought life was just what it was as a fat kid. I didn't have other experiences until I experienced life in--I was like, uh, I was a very small fat at my very smallest. Um, so I wasn't even like thin by anyone's objective point of view. And the treatment, the change in treatment was like, profound.

And so when I was at my lower weight, I decided to become a dietician. Because I thought, well, if I did this thing that almost nobody does, I must have some secret and I can help other people. And so I decided to become a dietician and started on that path, which is a super long path, um, with like lots of science requirements and stuff. And by the time I actually got to the point where I was entering into my dietetic curriculum at Saint Kate's and I was a transfer student from community college, I was fat again--like, FAT fat again--and I really had to like, question my role in this field and my role in this profession. And it took a good amount of time before I really felt comfortable and like I had a sense of purpose still in the area that I had chosen to go into.

Um, and luckily I picked up a book when I was at, um, when I worked at—I worked at Normandale Community College and I went to school there as well. And, I was always in the library because I got to, you know, the library was literally down the hallway from my office, and so I just got to go to the library on my lunch break and pick out books. And, um, there was a book on a shelf that was called Lessons from the Fatosphere. And I literally, I thought it was a dieting book. I thought like, who would write a book with the name fat in it, if it wasn't about not being fat anymore? Like, it was clearly a formerly fat person with the secret to success.

And luckily it was from the health at every size, body positive, Fatosphere bloggers that wrote the book and kind of did like this big overview summary of all of this, like fat—I mean, fat acceptance was kind of like the term used at the time, these were the folks that had coined the term body positive, um, in its initial use of the term, and they like talked about how you deserve to have underwear that fits you and you deserve to have clothes that fit your style in your size. And they gave like, a brief overview of health at every size. Um, and I was just so lucky that I picked up that book, and I know what librarian put it on the shelf, and I thanked her years later for setting me off on the path to like, where I was gonna go with my entire life's passion.

Yeah, and I just kept going further and further down the rabbit hole, and it was obviously a very long path of like learning and unlearning, but, um, eventually it got to the place where I felt like I had a purpose in becoming a fat dietician. And I feel like I now have like some, some mission in this world to help fat people.

So, yeah, I think that pretty much sums it up.

SB: (laughs) That's--I mean, that's perfect ,because you talked about your passion, your life's purpose to help fat folks. We've been talking about your fat liberation work since the beginning of the podcast, we've benefited from knowing you, would you mind talking more about that passion and what that looks like in regards to the Radical Health Alliance?

AJ: Yeah, absolutely.

Radical Health Alliance is a nonprofit based here in the Twin Cities where all three of us are located. We started almost two years ago, and--is that right? I have to do the math--over two years ago.

CP: I think over two years ago, right?

AJ: Yup. It was March, March of 2018, it was right after I had started my yoga classes. So I got trained to be a yoga teacher, not really intending to teach, but it was pretty clear by the end of my training—you know, you walk through all of these things when you're in teacher training about like, well, who do you want to teach and what do you care about? And like, how do you envision your classes going?

And by the end, I basically had planned yoga classes for fat people. And I was like, well, I just have to offer this now. And so I didn't really think much of it. I was just like, okay, I'm gonna find a place that I can rent out so I can do my own thing, and not be bound to a studio rules. And I put my classes out there, and they were very well received and we sold out really fast.

And so at first I, you know, I put my classes out there thinking, “Oh, I'm gonna break even moneywise. That's, that's an ideal situation right now, that I just don't lose money on teaching these classes.” Um, but we actually started to bring in a little bit of money and I had always wanted that class to be part of what supports Radical Health Alliance, which was like, it didn't exist at that point in time, but it had been a thought in my brain about something that I wanted to create. And so I was still in school, I was still a master's student at the U and I just said, well, why not? Why not start it now? Like, does it really matter if you have a master's degree or not? So I did.

And it came into existence, uh, whatever, two, two years and whatever, four months ago. Um, and it's mostly been yoga classes for the first couple of years. Um, we've offered them in a variety of formats and a variety of types of classes. Um, but now that I am done with school, and done with my registered dietician credentials--which is a long process--I have more time to focus on it, so we're starting to expand what we offer.

Last September, we had our very first Fat Camp. So we did our Rad Fat Adventure Camp, which was--70 people, I believe? 70ish--

SB: It was a dream! It was so cool when we got to come through, amazing.

AJ: Yeah! You two got to be there, and do a little mini recorded session there, and just get the vibe of what it was like--I liked how you described it as like, this little fat utopia, where fat people are just like on the water, and sitting on the lawn reading, and that is a lot of how it felt to me too.

CP: It was like that! It was beautiful.

AJ: Yeah. Um, and people just like coming together and supporting each other so beautifully, like with the same values and suddenly feeling at ease for the first time? That was the experience of a lot of folks at the camp, so that was, that was very, very powerful. And so yeah, this year has been very difficult to put that project on pause while we deal with a pandemic. Um, but obviously people's health is so much more important than running a camp.

SB: Right.

AJ: Regardless. Um, but yeah, that has also taken us in some new directions. So we were also gonna, you know--we're a very, like, public health-focused organization, I would say, and so we like to do a lot of physical activity things. Um, we have, we kind of partner with Fat Girls Hiking, we are not synonymous with them, but I'm one of the ambassadors. And so we kind of help spread the word about Fat Girls Hiking. And we started a biking project for Rad Fat Biking., and that had to be put on pause as well for the pandemic. Um, so we kind of had to pivot a little bit this year.

We brought our yoga classes online, and then, um--which has actually worked out quite well, better than I thought it would. And, um, and then we just started offering our very first workshop series, which is kind of inspired by Fat Camp, but also a little bit of something that I had hoped to create in an in-person setting sometime this year. Um, but it's working very well online and it's a five week workshop series where we meet once a week for two hours, called Liberatory Wellness. Um, yeah, so those are most of our offerings for fat people directly just like any fat person, whatever your background is, and we also do trainings for various workplaces. A lot of them are healthcare-related workplaces, but sometimes they're not. Various different organizations are looking to get training on "health at every size" concepts, like what fat discrimination looks like in the workplace and how they can combat that, so other topics related to fat people, depending on their workplace setting.

SB: Perfect.

CP: We also want to know more about ASDAH because we know that you are a part of that organization, Ani.

AJ: Yeah, ASDAH. ASDAH is the Association for Size Diversity and Health. Um, I have been on the board for the last two years and we've really been going through some pretty big transformations recently, which is really exciting.

ASDAH's been around since the early 2000s, I think 2003. The people who started the organization have done fat activism work in other organizations, um, some of which don't exist anymore, um, as like times change or whatever. And so ASDAH's been around officially since 2003, and they actually decided to trademark the "health at every size" term. So they own that trademark. And, um, so they're very affiliated with health at every size, the health at every size principles, um, the providers--so various, usually therapists and dieticians, but also doctors, um, scholarly folks doing research, um, fat activists just generally as well. All those kinds of people become members of ASDAH.

We're most well-known for our conference that gets held once every like two or three years, and so we're obviously trying to figure out what that means for us in 2021, but hopefully some version of it online, if not something in person later in the year.

And yeah, I mean, the organization is growing and becoming a thought leader in fat activism, and there's a lot of cool opportunities to get involved. And hopefully by the time this comes out, we will have some form of a new website and that’s a little easier to navigate, and doesn't look quite so shady, but if we don't, that's coming.

SB: It's something to look forward to. (Ani laughs)

You mentioned like getting involved, what could that look like for an individual person who maybe isn't familiar with ASDAH but wants to be more engaged?

AJ: Yeah, the organization has historically been completely volunteer-run, um, which is actually changing as of like, literally this moment; we just ended our elections and we had two paid positions for the first time ever on that ballot, so we now have two paid positions that will be kind of doing the bulk of the leadership work for ASDAH, but all the other positions, as of right now are volunteer positions. Our conference happens because of volunteer effort, and so it takes a big crew to actually pull that off and plan that and get it happening.

Um, so the conference is probably the biggest opportunity, but we also put out, like, educational webinars, um, as often as we can. It's looked different in the last couple of years, but we try to put out maybe like two to three webinars a year and that's through the education committee, so that's another team of folks who are all volunteers who come together to discuss like what kind of offerings we could have from our education folks. Um, we have a team that runs our social media, so we always need help just getting more content out there, getting more messaging out there about health at every size.

What else? There's our inclusion committee. So we have an inclusivity committee that, um, sometimes puts on webinars themselves, and they also tend to be the ones who partner with all the other committees to make sure that whatever we're doing, whether that's a conference or a webinar offering, or building our website, for example, that we are doing that with inclusion in mind. And so that we're making it accessible, inclusive, diverse, et cetera.

SB: That's wonderful, thank you so much for sharing that. It's been a bit of a mystery to me, even though, you know, I can Google and look at it, but this is super helpful.

AJ: Yeah. We've definitely been struggling with our website. That is, that is like the theme of ASDAH, is our website does not work, and so we actually can't update our website very easily, and so a lot of stuff doesn't get out there as much as it could and should.

SB: Well, excited to see what offerings come up going forward, that sounds awesome.

AJ: Thanks!

CP: Ani, so from just knowing you and some of our works together throughout the years, like you have such a great, like a research brain. A lot of the things that I know about, I dunno, fat stuff and HAES, um, a lot of that research has been brought to me through you. And so we're hoping you could share, like, what are some of the most compelling pieces of research that have informed your understanding of fat liberation and like, where might you suggest folks go to find resources around that?

AJ: This is such a good question. Um, and it's so layered. So—

CP: —also I should, I should mention like, this is--it's not like you can say, "These two things are the big things here," share a few, or like, give folks a place to start. (All laugh)

AJ: Right, exactly. Um, I think, I think it's so interesting, the way you phrase the question, my very, my very first response is honestly, the most profound things that have made a difference on my lens as a fat activist have not been academic research. And so what I mean by that is: the academic research and health at every size in particular, really hooked me in and, um, was the beginning of my pathway into this work.

And yet it's truly these like, amazing people who have gone before me in this field, who are the thought leaders on fat activism. Um, and their--I don't know the right word is-- their like, ethical arguments, underpinning why fat rights matter is stuff that research could never prove, right?

Like, why do fat people matter? Why do, um, why do fat people deserve the same access to healthcare as anybody else? These are like the questions and like the, the rhetoric that other fat activists have put out before me on these topics are, are the things that I think have shaped me the most.

And so, for example, this is one that we say all the time, right? "Health is not a moral obligation," which if you've never heard this before, like takes a minute to parse out exactly what it means and what it's saying. But essentially, we live in a world where we've started to view people who are healthy as people who are like, inherently good people. And so we like, lift up marathon runners as if, if you were a marathon runner, you could never be a serial killer. (Cat and Saraya laugh)

And like, you could be! You could totally be a serial killer who also then goes out and runs a marathon, right? So--or has like, perfect labs from their blood work, from their latest checkup, right? It doesn't take being a good person to achieve those things, and pursuing those things doesn't make you a good person either.

And so that phrase, "health is not a moral obligation," like as fat people, we don't owe anybody our health, we don't anybody or health status or health history in order to get the things that are our inborn rights, right? So like, we have the right to have access to healthcare. We have the right to exist in this world,right? We have the right to take up space and just be in public. Um, and you can't do a research study that says, "Well, is health a moral obligation?" Right? Like that can never be a research question, um, because it's like your ethical and moral ways of viewing the world.

So all that to say, like the things that have most profoundly impacted me as a fat activist are definitely those types of conversations and things that other fat activists have thought deeply about and discussed at length, and have really set the groundwork for my work, which is really health-based; so you're getting all these health examples, because my work is very health based, um, both as a dietician and through Radical Health Alliance, which, "health" is in our name, we're obviously focused on health.

Um, but public health, I would say, right? Like it's very, um, preventative care, to use the language of my degree, right; things that improve people's life and prevent disease later on. So, you know, when my work is like very health focused, it can be really easy to get sucked into the research that shows that being in a larger body does not equal your health status, and use that as like our arguments for why we deserve love and respect and our basic needs being met, when that's not actually the case at all. It's an important piece of the conversation, it does matter when I go to the doctor, if I want quality healthcare, it does matter what the research says about health and weight, but it doesn't mean that that's the reason why I get treated right with respect of the doctor.

SB: I think that's very interesting, because something that I was excited to talk with you about it, what has been the most rewarding or joyful part of your fat liberation experience? And you almost address that earlier when you were talking about, you know, finding that book on the bookshelf, or even just having these realizations of these thought leaders in fat activism before, but yeah. I'm gonna pose the question again, even though I think you've done a beautiful job of addressing pieces of it, what has been the most joyful part of your fat liberation experience?

AJ: I'm glad that you're asking it again, because those things have definitely brought me joy, but I don't think I've even talked about the things that make me the most joyful in my work as a fat activist, and it's absolutely the community!

CP: Yeah!

AJ: So, Cat and I started the Twin Cities Fat Community--

CP: —Forever ago!!

AJ: A long time ago, a while ago.

CP: No, I think it was like, nearly five years ago. Yup.

AJ: I think so. And, we started with like 15 people and we tried to arrange little pool get-togethers with folks to meet each other, and it was fantastic. And now we're over, we're a group of over 800. Um, and we have new, we have additional admins and, um, the group, you know, the group is not anybody's individual ownership, it really is a community.

And from that community, just like so many other community-based opportunities have been created. So much of what happens at Rad Health is like an offshoot of what has happened and who has been brought together in the Twin Cities Fat Community. Fat Camp is a great example of that community, and even now this Liberatory Wellness class that I'm offering for the first time we're on like week, this will be week three. Having these folks in the room and getting them--they're talking to each other and they're saying things like, I've never heard another fat person say this stuff before. (Cat and Saraya: Awww.) Yeah. Um, and they're connecting with each other and like, talking about how important fat friendships are, and how important it is to have community that has these shared values.

They, you know, they don't have a lot of people--not everybody, but many of the folks participating in this current cohort anyway--um, they don't have a lot of people in their lives that are both fat and fat positive. And so they finally have a safe space where they get to talk about this stuff and get support and like learn in a different environment. So it's been really, it's been really powerful. It's been the highlight of my week so far.

SB: Aw! I mean, that sounds joyful, that sounds healing, and I mean, to use your word, powerful too. So thank you for sharing that with us.

AJ: Thank you.

CP: Anything else? Ani, is there anything you haven't given you the opportunity to talk about that you'd like to share?

AJ: Oh, that's such a tough question. I always feel like I forget something after I've like listed off the things that I think I do--(laughs)

SB: You're busy! You're doing a lot!

Yeah. Um, and so much has changed. I think that's been like the weirdest thing has been, you know, my days used to be filled with going to in-person yoga classes and planning in person hikes, and all of the sudden I'm just here on my patio, working away and everything happens via a computer, so. It is a little bit of a mind shift to be like, okay, what do I do now?

SB: Maybe that's something, not to put you on the spot, like, what has been most helpful for you just being mindful with this new way of navigating life?

AJ: Yeah. That's such a good question because, um, this is so new for all of us, and we're all just trying to figure it out and navigate it as best we possibly can. Um, and it's definitely taken me a while to really settle in and start to think about how to engage with my life and get all of my multi--you know, these are exactly the same things that I talk about with other people, right--all my multidimensional needs that contribute to my well-being. How do I get all of those needs met, um, from this, this one little tiny piece postage stamp of land, right?

I mean I'm just like, profoundly privileged for so many of the things that I have available to me. Um, so I have a partner that I live with, which means I have a human being that I get to like, touch and talk to face-to-face on a regular basis. We own a house, which means I have a yard, and means I don't have to like pass by neighbors in a hallway to risk going outside. Um, and we both have jobs that are really easy to do from our homes. So, um, like we're just profoundly privileged in so many ways.

Um, but for me, one of the major things has been, I work from outside for most of the most of the time. And so I hold most of my meetings outside--unless it's something that is a private conversation--and being outside and being able to just like, hear the birds continue to do their thing, watch the squirrels continue to do their thing, watch the seasons change and watch the clouds roll by.

Like, it's a good reminder that even though this time, like really sucks for everybody to different levels, for sure, this time definitely sucks, but time is also still passing, and like, things are still changing and moving. And I remember when like our first season change came, that was so important to me to experience the change from spring to summer, because it like, reminded me, like the world is resilient. The Earth is resilient. We as humans are really resilient and like, life is gonna go on. Like, we're gonna keep going and we're gonna get through this; it's happening around us and it's happening to us, but like, we're gonna get through it.

CP: Oh, that's so beautiful, and yes, you're right! That's perfect.

SB: Well, thank you so much, Ani, for taking time to share all of this with us. We've really appreciated it.

AJ: Thank you so much for having me! It's been so lovely to talk to you both.

CP: Ani! Thanks for telling us your story as—

CP+SB: —a matter of fat!

SB: I'm so pleased that we could share that conversation with you!

CP: Same same same. You know, I just, (sighs) we're so lucky to be able to sit down with folks like this and hear from them, and even more fortunate to be able to share their stories and wisdom with y'all.

SB: It's amazing how, in such a short interview, that we can encapsulate the complexity and multitudes of someone's life experience. Ani did such a wonderful job of explaining her fat liberation journey, and I found it profound to consider that yes, there is data and logic to back up what we talk about here in Matter of Fat, but the ethical and moral considerations of human dignity should supercede all of that.

CP: Yeah! And you know, what's a better way to discuss more complex, nuanced topics than in—

CP+SB: —Dirt and Discourse!

[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]

CP: It's time for the Dirt and Discourse. This is where we dive into the excitement and discomfort around relevant pop and cultural happenings.

SB: So, this is a very big political year in the U.S. The vice presidential Democratic candidate was recently named, and there are a lot of thoughts and feelings on that. I have them, perhaps you do too. However, Cat and I were talking the other day about the V.P. Candidates that were under consideration, and focused a lot of our conversation on Stacey Abrams.

CP: Stacey Abrams is one of the few plus sized politicians in the national spotlight. She ran for governor of Georgia, she runs an organization fighting voter suppression--uh, surprise, surprise, I just read one of her books, Lead from the Outside--so, she was someone who was looked to as a potential V.P. choice, but wasn't selected. We have thoughts about that, but generally wanna just discuss how fatphobia and also sexism and racism have undoubtedly impacted Stacey Abrams' career, and what we can learn from this bold and ambitious woman.

SB: First, a little background on Stacey. She was born in Madison, Wisconsin--Midwest, baby, we've gotta call it out when we see it--but grew up in Mississippi. Yup. Okay. There we go.

She served for 10 years, 2007 to 2017, as a state representative in the Georgia general assembly. She was the house minority leader for six of those years,

CP: She ran for governor of Georgia in 2018, and that made her the first Black woman in the U.S. to be a major party's nominee for governor. So I don't, I mean, maybe I had heard of her before that, but like this gubernatorial election was like the first time I really started paying attention to her. Saraya, was she on your radar before that at all?

SB: No, absolutely not. I was--I'm a political newb. I can't say that I was paying attention prior to that point.

CP: So while Abrams lost that 2018 election by less than 2%--or around like 55,000 votes--it helps shed light on the massive voter suppression efforts in Georgia, many of which were put in place by the very guy she was running against--Brian Kemp, now governor of Georgia--while he was the Georgia Secretary of State.

Okay, so get this: while he served as secretary of state from 2010 to 2018, his office purged 1.4 million voters from their rolls for a variety of reasons, including things like not voting in a previous election, or even like their handwritten voter registration wasn't identical to their personal documents due to even a typo, and this impacted black voters in Georgia most dramatically.

SB: Hmm. So to recap, Brian Kemp was responsible for creating the laws that made it difficult for folks to vote, and then won a gubernatorial election narrowly, likely in large part due to the unscrupulous voting laws he enacted as Secretary of State.

CP: Right! I mean, yikes, right?

SB: Cool cool cool.

CP: Well, so while it was a tragedy Abrams didn't win--and honestly, we're not using that term loosely. Like, Brian Kemp is currently mismanaging a coronavirus response that's likely leading to more loss of life than acceptable in Georgia. So like, while it was indeed a tragedy that Abrams didn't win, it did shed more light and more of like a national spotlight on the issue of voter suppression.

SB: As I shared, I didn't know much about Abrams before, so it was good to talk with Cat and do more research.

Um, so in 2018 she founded Fair Fight Action, an organization to address the voter suppression we're talking about, especially in Georgia and Texas, but with impact in 18 states. Fair Fight promotes fair elections in Georgia and around the country ,encourages voter participation in elections, and educates voters about elections and their voting rights. They also support pro-voting rights progressive leaders.

CP: As a side note, so you know I lived in Louisiana and Texas for awhile, and while I was there, I was shocked by how difficult they made it for folks to vote, or register to vote. And, okay, it is not at all perfect here, but I do think Minnesota, like, comparatively, has some better laws than in those States, in terms of, in terms of the right to vote. You know, seeing firsthand how different voting laws are in other places, and like, seeing clearly that they're really just like, set up to disenfranchise people, it was so troubling.

SBIt's also wild to consider the boldness with which many Republicans try to make voting more difficult. It's like, if keeping folks from voting is actually part of your campaign strategy, you don't belong in office!

CP: No! Get out of there!

SB: Shoo!!

CP: Stacey's work around combating voter suppression is so, so, so important. And she documents her work in her most recent book called Our Time is Now—I haven't read that yet. Also, there's a documentary that she's part of that's coming out on the same topic.

SB: What a woman. Okay. Stacey is a lawyer, an entrepreneur, and clearly all-around badass. I mean, how much more experience do you need? If we're talking about public, government, and private sectors, she's got a bingo folks.

CP: Okay, also, she writes romance novels under a pen name. I mean, hello! Perfect.

Stacey is clearly an incredible woman, and you know, we think that she hasn't got the respect or the success that she deserves.

SB: There's a CNN opinion piece entitled "Why Stacey Abrams Deserves Applause," and it's poignant for me for many reasons which I will share in a moment, but also because there's like very little being talked about regarding her and her V.P. candidacy.

But anyways, the opinion piece cites research that anytime a woman demonstrates an interest in power, the public tends to react with moral outrage.

CP: Right. And like, reacting in ways they would never, if it were a man expressing the same aspirations. Honestly, I find Stacey Abrams ambition to be an inspiration. She spends a lot of time talking about this in her book, Lead from the Outside, the one I read. Um, and I just, I was so here for it.

SB: It sort of feels like folks have used that ambition against her. Like, how dare she be so bold as to express interest in the vice presidency or even being the president someday?

CP: Which, one, feels like a clear double standard that women in power face. And, two, I actually heard her respond to this kind of question on a podcast recently, and she reminded the host that like in these interviews, folks are asking her about this and she's answering.

She talks about how doing the work to make our democracy work for everyone is important to her, so of course you'd want to hold an office at that level in order to make the most impact.

SB: Mm, another double standard is the question of her experience, like I was saying earlier. It's ludicrous-NOT Chris Bridges (Cat laughs)—it's ludicrous, not like that reference, that in a nation where we can elect someone to the highest office with virtually no political experience, we're questioning the ability of a woman who's demonstrated her ability to do the work.

CP: Yesss!

SB: There are probably a bunch of factors as to why she wasn't chosen as the VP candidate. But I gotta think that misogynoir comes into it.

In case you're not familiar, misogynoir is the confluence of racial and gender oppression for black women. I mean, that's a pretty reductive breakdown of queer black feminist Moya Bailey's term, but it would be a mistake for us not to name that here and in plain.

CP: Right. And also, we gotta talk about how fatphobia factors into all of this. So Ericka Hart recently tweeted, and I quote, "And I thought to myself, why didn't he pick Stacey Abrams? I had a complicated answer, but it really just boils down to colorism and fatphobia being an everything."

SB: Ugh. The way Stacey Abrams shows up in the world as a plus sized black woman with natural hair is somehow both a major source of conversation, and also, not really discussed at all. While there are pieces referencing this, including the one I shared earlier, it feels like many folks are unwilling to confront the structural bias and internal biases, including fatphobia, that put increased scrutiny on Stacey.

I mean, just looking at the responses to Ericka Hart's tweet make it clear that many folks aren't even sure what fatphobia is, or believe it's real--uh, by the way, it's real.

CP: It's so real that we created a whole minisode about it for you! (Saraya laughs) So, go and check that out if you haven't already.

And I think that's one of the reasons we like Ericka Hart's tweet so much. To us, based on our experiences and our work, we know fatphobia is obviously at play here. It just feels like most folks aren't directly acknowledging that.

S: Even in the article I mentioned, the research was bad based on white, straight-sized women. So how does misogynoir and fatphobia compound those reactions? It's not even a point of discussion amongst the media and other people. If we can't be transparent about the social machinations at work, how can we begin to trust the people in positions of power?

C: You know, like most Dirt and Discourses, we don't really have answers here.

S: Sorry.

C: Yeah. Sorry! Spoiler alert, we didn't solve this, but these are things that we hope you're thinking about and considering as a matter of fat.

I have so much respect and admiration for Stacy, and I know that she is someone who's going to do the work and keep fighting for what's right, even when confronted with obstacles due to racism, sexism, and fatphobia.

S: She is. And with that, we'll leave you with this quote from Abrams on the show “Black Women OWN the Conversation” on the Oprah Winfrey Network in 2019.

C: She says, I" like who I am. And because I knew I was the best person for the job, I wasn't going to wait until Weight Watchers or Jenny Craig turned me into the 'after' picture." And then she goes on to say, "I'm not trying to fit anyone else's image. There has not been what I am. Therefore, I'm going to be what I am."

[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN]

S: Oh my God.

C: Oh, it's so beautiful! Stacey! (sighs)

[TRANSITON MUSIC FADES OUT]

S: Wow wow wow wow wow. Just another great feature-length episode for you! And I can say that because we had an interview, as in a feature. Cat laughs) Don't come for me. It makes sense. It's great. It's witty. Love it.

C: Before you go, we have to give you some deets about this month's Podluck! It's tomorrow, August 27th, if you're listening to this episode on release day.

S: So we're discussing a recent episode of Nicole Byers "Why Won't You Date Me?" podcast, where she interviews Roxane Gay. Two fat folks you know and love, together in a perfect episode to be discussed as a matter of fat.

C: And fat folks that we've seen IRL more than once, Saraya!

S: Yeah! We saw Roxanne during our literary capades.

C: Yes! And I've seen Nicole Byer perform--and, very delayed, thanks again for that invite Ian, from 2017. And, she came to Cake once when she was in town.

S: Oh, I love that! Especially since she's on "Nailed It!", it's just like, cake everywhere.

C: Yesss!

S: Um, okay. We should also mention in a way that's like pretty on-brand for Nicole, that there are some NSFW elements to this episode, especially the last five minutes. Uh, we like, well chosen cusses and stories, but maybe the folks around you don't.

C: So listen to some or all of the episode or none of it. I mean, you're welcome to join us no matter how much you've listened. Also, we should note that our Podlucks are open to all folks, whether you identify as fat or not.

Our conversation is 6 to 7:30 PM Central time, and you can RSVP on our website!

S: Yes yes yes, the website. www.matteroffatpod.com also has show notes and transcripts, info out the show, how to get on our newsletter list, older episodes, and much, much more.

C: Please subscribe, rate, and review the podcast wherever you catch Matter of Fat. We love to shout out our Apple reviews on our Instagram story. Wink, wink!

S: Yes. We love sharing a tag of you enjoying or relating to the podcast, so tag away, baby. Also, gotta give it up for the podcast assistants! They are talents with Instagram stories and elsewhere and are much appreciated.

C: Until next time, when we're back for another episode of—

S: —Matter of Fat!

[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN]

C: Is that enough?

S: Yeah, I think so. YOU’RE enough.

C: Ohhh Saraya!

S: You’ve ALWAYS been enough.

C: (swoons) That’s so sweet!

[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES OUT]

-END-