S3E2 - Alexander Jacques, School System Secrets, + Dressing for Your Damn Self - Transcript

Release August 12th, 2020. For complete episode info, visit this page!

[ELECTRO-POP INTRO FADES IN, FADES OUT]

Cat Polivoda: Welcome to Matter of Fat, a body positive podcast with Midwest sensibilities.

Hi, I'm Cat Polivoda—a local fat feminist, shop owner, and I now live in the retrocam filter on Instagram stories. It's bringing me the beach vibes I will not otherwise be getting this summer. I am joined by my cohost and producer Saraya Boghani.

Saraya Boghani: Hi, I'm Saraya. I'm a fat, multiracial, Minneapolitan millennial who has learned to love watching the clouds. It's the simple things, I guess.

CP: On Matter of Fat, we're here to talk about the cultural politics of fat liberation with a Midwest perspective.

SB: Let's kick it off with—

CP+SB: —the Fat Dish!

[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]

CP: It's time for The Fat Dish, where we share—or dish—about what's going on with us.

SB: Where should we start with this? I mean, like, maybe the last episode would make the most sense? Uh, So last time we interviewed Kachina, and she suggested some romance novels, which to be honest are more of Cat's thing, but I ended up listening to two of them whilst I was packing up my apartment to move.

CP: Um, aaaand?!

SB: I didn't hate it! (laughs) I didn't hate it, and that's the best we can really get.

CP: Honestly, from you, that is high praise, a glowing review.

SB: Yes, yes. So Kachina shared the recommendation for Beach Read by Emily Henry, and it's an enemies-into-lovers trope, but like very literary, and I ended up identifying with the gruff curmudgeonly character more than the main protagonist. So yeah, I don't know if that was the goal with this read, but that's how I took it.

CP: Honestly, I love that. And I really liked Beach Read too! The style of writing is a little bit different than like, what we usually get with romance, but I liked it a lot. And Saraya, I know you like this too, cause like, you were texting me your thoughts when dramatic things happened. There was like, some real energy and excitement around this to be sure.

SB: (laughs) Yes, there was, I won't lie. Uh, I think like, when you start to get invested in the characters, and there's like a little reveal, it just gets so good. I really don't want to give away too much, but there was this level of reality of how people, um, as teenagers or college-age, just don't know how to act. And then you see that character growth and emotional development, and it's a level of realism that I haven't found in the limited romance novels that I've read—or maybe, like, tried to read—before.

CP: (scoffs) Ok well, shots fired, Saraya. (laughs)

SB: No shots, no shots. I will say Kachina said something last episode that kind of stuck with me and got me thinking. So like, romance novels themselves aren't inherently good or bad, and there's a good case for them, I think just like any genre. I also listened to Well Met, which was another recommendation Kachina suggested and it was entertaining, but it's just like, not the story or characters that appeal to me. I mean like Cat—

CP: —Yeah?—

SB: —Yeah, when we were talking about how sci-fi fantasy isn't a genre you like, but then we went over how there are many romance novels that you don't like, and like a genre unto itself isn't a monolith. And I'm sure there'd be something that you would like, especially considering the variety of writers and modern takes on well-loved tropes today.

CP: You're so right. And actually, to that end, I just finished listening to Julie Murphy's Faith Taking Flight. (Saraya gasps) It's young adult, and also fantasy, so like, you know, not what I usually gravitate toward. But I wanted to read it because I love a fat protagonist, I really like Julie and her work, and this book is set in Minnesota.

SB: Yeah, I love Julie! And, um, wasn't Cake mentioned in it?

CP: Yes, my shop was mentioned in it! I'm still like, oh my gosh, I just like, can't get over how exciting that is. Um, so, yes, for all those reasons, I wanted to read it, even though like, it wasn't my usual type of book, and I really, really liked it. I love the character of Faith and like kind of the mystery and suspense of the book. There was even a little teenage romance.

SB: Well, you got your romance, right there! That's, that's why. (Cat laughs) But I think it's just good story, like, a good story of any kind of genre is at its core about human experience. And like, if you resonate with that experience, you'll like it.

CP: Yeah. Okay. And there is just like, one more that I have to mention because you're right. Even though—or even within—like, the romance genre, I am picky because it's just like a lot that I don't really respond well to. But when I like something, I LIKE it! I've gushed all over the internet about this already, but I would like to gush further about another romcom read that I COULD NOT get enough of!

SB: As someone who is seeing you go on and on about this, on your Instagram story, the shop's Instagram, and Matter of Fat, and like probably many of you out there, and I know where this is going. I mean, Cat, you have an empire of content-sharing platforms. Tell us, what is the book?

CP: One to Watch!

SB: Which one? Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, or—

CP: —okay, Saraya. (Saraya laughs) Shut it, certified-bad-at-social. Okay, speaking of certified bad, can we just talk for a moment about how you put a full Google doc link IN Comic Sans ON our Instagram stories?! (Saraya cracking up laughing) It’s so bad.

SB: I am so pleased with myself right now. Okay, so for those of you who have no idea what Cat is talking about, we started doing more Instagram stories from each of us and the assistants. So my day is Tuesday, and this last Tuesday, I was so focused on moving that I forgot to post until 11:47 PM. And I really like, I had content ready to go. I wanted to pub, uh, our friend Mycall's QTPOC book club, but I didn't have a good image or Instagram post to share. So I—(starts laughing again)—I literally put the link as text for a Google doc, a sign-up in the story, in Comic Sans.

CP: So. BAD!

SB: It was really bad. I was like very tired, and I also knew that it was a trash move, but I also, using Comic—I used Comic Sans because like, I don't have access to that font on my regular plebe stories, so I was really, it was a lot, I was trying out a lot of things. I also immediately acknowledged, uh, the ridiculous choice and solidified my brand as bad at social media. I know what I'm doing, I know what I'm about, and so does everyone else who's doing great, sweetie. Like the daily posts has been (smooch) chef's kiss. Lindsay, Erin, and Cindy have been sharing some really great content and thoughts.

But yeah, no, I acknowledge, I acknowledge and I'm very pleased with myself.

CP: I've been shaking my head so hard through this entire explanation of yours. It's like a mix between like the blinking eye gif, and me shaking my head here, but yes.

SB: But it’s got us talking! (C: Yes!) It's like the best kind of content. We're still thinking about it. It's still in our hearts. (C: Oh my God.)

Okay. Okay. Okay. Back to One to Watch. Let's get back on track.

CP: (still laughing) Still in our hearts. Okay. Um, yes. Uh, I will also add that like, the Instagram stories have been very, very fun. Um, and yes, I am not referring to social media, but referring to USA Today's bestselling book One to Watch by Kate Stayman-London. I a-DORED this book and like, Oh my God, I loved it so much. This is one of my favorite books in recent memory. The main character is a fat influencer who blogs a scatching critique about The Bachelor's lack of representation, and then winds up being the first fat bachelorette. And of course, it's not like, called The Bachelor. It's like, you know, a fictitious thing, but we all know it's The Bachelor.

SB: Mhmm, I'm here for a Bachelor critique, always. I never really got into the show, which is a decidedly unpopular opinion. Um, but anyways, okay. Tell me more about this book.

CP: Also same, and for many reasons, one of which is that there are no fat people on it.

It had so much of what I was looking for in a novel; it was fun and honest and included some social justice commentary, and it was full of current pop culture references—such a fave. The best part for me was that like, love and dating as a plus-size woman was really front and center to the story, you know?

And I will say like, in lots of romance novels, we often get what feels just like a lot of like insecure, anxious internal dialogue, and I'm not a fan of it. I don't wanna hear about how a character doesn't think they're good enough or doesn't think they're pretty enough, or like kind of second guessing every interaction. That's not fun for me, and I think mostly because I don't find it very relatable, but it was just like different with One to Watch, 'cause there was a lot of this like internal dialogue, but something was different about like how I responded to it.

I think it was really relatable because Bea, the main character, was expressing feelings about dating and love as plus-size woman in ways that like, really resonated with things that I do or have experienced. It wasn't just like airing insecurities in a self deprecating way. It was, I don't know, more nuanced than that. I just was really here for it. And, might I add, the audiobook was expertly narrated. It was so, so, so, so, SO well done. So, gush gush gush—a word Saraya doesn't like, but I think it's very appropriate for this. (Saraya: Ugh.) Um, I'm gushing. I love the book and I promise I'm done now. (Both laugh)

Saraya, tell the people about what all this packing has been about.

SB: Yeah. so, as I mentioned, I was packing because I just moved apartments. Um, I love my neighborhood in Minneapolis, so I didn't leave it. And this is just like, kind of a big deal because I was at my previous place for almost five years. And I just loved the old brownstone I was living in. It was the perfect place for my mid- to late twenties, and I'll miss it so much. It's just like such a weird, odd experience when your home all of a sudden transforms into empty rooms, like very dusty empty rooms. I was just astounded at how much dust there is. It was disgusting.

Anyways. I really liked the new place. It's so, so new. It's the antithesis of the prior one and I am—Cat, I am living in the future. Like, okay. So before I would, you know, maybe not order things online because there was a, there's a chance that the package would get to your door and then maybe not make it in the door by like, a well-meaning neighbor who was able to get it into the locked area of the building.

CP: Yeah, like my place, I get it, yeah.

SB: Exactly. So like now though, I get an email when a package is delivered and I wander down to this wall of lockers, and I scan the barcode on the email and a door magically pops open with your package inside!

CP: Oh my gosh, you—okay, you are living in the future! The future is now!

SB: The future is now, and it's just so astounding to me. It's so nice. And, um, yeah, I just, I'm enjoying it so much. Also, there's just more windows and trees, and it's just beautiful, and so peaceful, and I want everyone to come over and enjoy it with me, but, you know, corona says otherwise. So, um, that's not gonna happen anytime soon, which also kind of leads me to still not being fully unpacked yet. So all of my Zoom calls look like I've chosen a background of an empty room stacked with cardboard boxes, like a joke background. Um, oh, also though, shout out to podcast assistant Erin—and previous guest—for hooking me up with some moving boxes due to her previous home move, and they came in real clutch, so.

CP: Oh I love that! Um, yeah, and I saw the box background on our multiple Zooms, um, including the one the other night for the Podluck!

SB: Oh my God. Yeah, it really does look like a joke background. But yes, the Podluck, it was so nice to see some of y'all there and talk about The Nod's interview with Sabrina Strings and her research in Fearing the Black Body. I was living for that conversation. It was such a highlight.

CP: Yes, it was so good, such a lovely convo. And honestly, I can't wait ‘til we do our next one. In fact, we should share that our next Podluck will be on Thursday, August 27th, from 6 to 7 PM Central Time.

SB: So at the time of us recording this, we're still deciding which episode to go with, to talk about. So just like pop over to our website, www.matterfatpod.com/events. Don't worry, (starts laughing) I'll probably paste it into an Instagram story. (C: Oh Lordy.) You won't be able to click it to link it but you'll to see the FULLLLLLLL address. Um, go over there. Don't worry. Tuesdays are my days. Just gear up everybody. (Cat laughs) Okay. So RSVP and learn about what podcast episode we're gonna discuss as a matter of fat on the website.

CP: I can't wait. Okay, and, you know, our Podluck night was full of a lot of shared Zooms. I got to see that sweet, sweet box background multiple times. 'Cause after we wrapped up our Podluck, we headed over to our first 2020-2021 New Leaders Council Twin City board meeting. Saraya, your first NLC board meeting!

SB: Oh my gosh. The energy was so great. And like, in the time of COVID-19, you need to balance out like multiple hours of video conversations with like such good, good energy, and I got that.

Um, yeah, I don't know. We've talked about it before, but this last year, I was part of the 2020 New Leaders Council leadership cohort, and I got so much out of it. I would encourage anyone interested in progressive leadership, or someone who's interested in finding a network of amazing people or wanting to learn more about politics, policy, nonprofits, communication, just like so much, to check out the New Leaders Council Twin Cities chapter online. Applications for the 2021 cohort are live and there are information sessions going on too. Instagram is where I've seen those most widely shared and, uh, applications are due early September. So make sure to look into it, if you're interested.

CP: Yes. yes, yes! I cosign all of that. Um, and I think I speak for both of us, like, feel free to get in touch with us if you would like, if we could be helpful to you, if you're considering applying.

SB: Yeah, exactly. I mean, I'm bad at social media, so like, it might be rough to get in touch with me, but if you email us at the podcast or just send us a message on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, or whatever, we'd be happy to talk with you about it.

CP: Our engagement with NLC Twin Cities frequently pops up here in the Fat Dish. Cause Saraya's role as a 2020 fellow and my role as co-curriculum chair were just like such big parts of our year last year. Um, and now we're both on the board, so I think this like, NLC energy is only gonna get stronger.

SB: It has been a big part of our lives. And one of the things I've enjoyed the most about my NLC experience so far is the relationships I've been able to build. Um, in fact, our interview is with one of those folks.

CP: Ooh, well, you know what? It sounds like it's time to get into it!

[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]

SB: We’re excited to share our interview with Alex Jacques. We both know Alex through our involvement with the NLC Twin Cities chapter.

CP: This past year I got to work alongside Alex in our shared board role of curriculum co-chairs, basically planning and facilitating the 2020 Institute. Oh! And fun fact, Saraya, we—so you, me, and Alex—were all in the same room one time before we all knew each other. Alex was at the workshop that Sonalee Rashatwar did at Cake last year, like I guess maybe a year and a half ago. I think that’s actually where I met Alex, but you hadn’t met him yet, right?

SB: Oh my God, that’s such a small small world! And then we interviewed Sonalee right after that.

CP: Yeah! Ok, small world, rad world, fat world.

Alex, we're so excited that you're with us here today!

Alex Jacques: I am so honored and excited to be here.

CP: We'd like to start how we always do, which is asking you to tell us your story as a matter of fat.

AJ: Well I am a fat, European-descent, white queer, living in Minneapolis. I am male-passing or cis-passing. I'm super tall, I'm 6'2", and I have a beard. Um, I use he/him pronouns, but all pronouns are welcome, and as I've grown into my fatness, as an adult especially, I've also found myself growing into my queerness, and those two things right now feel super inextricably linked for me. Um, I typically call myself a genderqueer gay man, which might feel paradoxical to people, but feels right for me right now.

When I sorta think about my story from that typical beginning point, when I'm asked, like where I grew up, that's always kind of a tricky question for me to answer. I basically grew up in Green Bay, Wisconsin, though my Mom and Dad were divorced, and the house I lived in with my Mom and stepdad was in a town called Hobart, Wisconsin, which is actually within the United Tribal Nation reservation so it is literally to this day, like, a growing development of white-owned homes and businesses built on like stolen, stolen land, like re-stolen land. And so I encourage everybody to read up on the ongoing sovereignty in boundary lawsuits between the village and the tribe. Hobart has a super long history of acting outside of established tribal law and outside of the interests of the United people. Um, and so when I talk about where I come from, I always make sure to include that.

So anyway, abolish Hobart (Saraya laughs) and that's where our house was. And then I attended school in sort of a third locale, in a rural school district in a small Polish Catholic farm town of 3000 people, about 25 minutes away from that house. So lots of different experiences in lots of different spaces, as a kid.

When I think about those experiences as a student, I can remember the first time I was called "chubby." It was by a peer of mine, and we were in the line for recess in like first or second grade. Um, and I don't think until that point I had ever really thought about my body like that before, but immediately when I was called chubby, I was just like, overcome with shame. So like, clearly had been conditioned and realized that being chubby should make me feel bad. Um, and so I think, you know, from then on, throughout my childhood, I think I always just knew that I was the fat kid or the chubby kid, and that shame carried through that entire time, because I think once that label and shame is stuck on, it's hard to get off, like Goo Gone doesn't work for that shit, you know, it's just like becomes a part of—becomes a part of you.

Um, so even as like my body changed and my fatness sort of waxed and waned, I was always the chubby one—or I always thought I had like, 10 or 20 pounds to lose. And so while that experience was happening internally for me, there was always like, a new diet happening around me in our house. Like, we were—we were on the South Beach diet, or the Jenny Craig diet, or Atkins, or like the 17 Day diet—I don't know, like Skinny Beauties R Us? (Cat and Saraya laugh) Like whatever. I don't know. My mom even brought me with her to TOPS, um, which is similar to a 12-step program for weight loss, is something that I can equate it to. But it was me in elementary school—I think I was in like, fourth grade—and a bunch of women who were all there talking about like weight loss and their lifelong quote-unquote "struggle" to like, maintain their shape, or thinness.

In my house there was, you know, lots of talk, as you can imagine, about good foods versus bad foods and the fat-free train and the sugar-free train. I don't think anyone ever forced me to go on diets, but it was definitely encouraged, and I think because I carried that label and that shame of like considering myself the fat kid, I was always like, "Yep. This is just something that I need to do to be healthy and loved and attractive and okay." And like, in reality, I was all of those things the whole time. I think that's something that I'm still trying to internalize and remind myself of today. Like, I'm healthy and loved and attractive and okay.

I remember in high school at my thinnest, my thinnest, like ever in my life—if you look at pictures, you see like a straight sized thin person—but my doctor at the time was like, “We really need to talk about losing some weight before college.” And I was like, "Woah, she's right. I'm so fat and like unhealthy." (Cat sighs) And what I really just needed at that time was someone to talk with me not about freaking weight loss, but about how to survive high school in this like, racist and homophobic town, you know? (Cat and Saraya: Yeah.)

So, you know, high school, it was generally rough for me. I was sort of forced out of the closet when I was 15, and before and throughout that time experienced, frankly, a lot of abuse from peers and from adults and teachers. It sort of—it sort of felt like the few supportive teachers I did have took this, like, "don't ask, don't tell" approach. Like, "Oh, maybe you wouldn't be, you know, experiencing this harassment and bullying if you would just like, tone it down." Or, you know, like, "Don't say the things that you're saying and you won’t attract all this attention."

But what I did have in high school was, this like safety in the arts classrooms, um, and in like theater and music compared to the other aspects of schools—of school, rather. These are the places where I felt the safest and most affirmed, and music gave me and still does give me a huge purpose and outlet. I think as a student, I experienced it as a vehicle for vulnerability and, um, just learning about the human experience. I was also like, much better at music than my peers. (All laugh) Um, and just like, found a lot of safety and a community of peers and had a ton of friends and a ton of really positive experiences in school too.

I think like, while music sort of on one hand became this place to put sort of this perfectionist energy that I'm sure I learned and absorbed from diet culture and like trying to find affirmation as a queer kid, it also like, generated some of the most incredible experiences in my life at that point and still continues to do so. So I was inspired by some really great teachers to enter into the profession of vocal music teaching, myself. So I went off to college and I think college presented me with, for the first time, this feeling of like freedom to make my own decisions about a lot of stuff, and you know, certainly about like how to nourish my body and what foods to choose. I did not approach college in any regard with the sense of like control or, um, deprivation. Like I was all about the experiences, the friends, the parties, the food, like I just went all in, in college and had a really great time, and put on a lot of weight really quickly.

That was always extremely triggering, and those feelings of shame grew and grew and grew in my early twenties. When I left college and entered teaching, and was a professional for the first time, I sought bariatric surgery twice, and looking back on that, I am so, so grateful that the barriers that were there, that at the time I was extremely angry about, were there to prevent me from making that choice. Because in the subsequent years I have learned so much about fatness, about fat justice and activism, and honestly, in large part, thanks to you two, which is a reason why I am so honored to be here. (Cat and Saraya: Aww!)

Um, and, you know, have just been enjoying these, this local and national conversation and like, frankly, this budding movement toward fat liberation. And, you know, still, like, seeing a therapist about all of this baggage from all of that shame for years and years and years, but being finally, you know, comfortable and confident calling myself a super fat queer and just takin' up that space.

CP: Yes.

SB: Thank you so much, Alex. Um, appreciate you. I mean, we've known you through New Leaders Council, and I've learned so much from you. And getting this insight into your life and this vulnerability that you've shared with us is just really meaningful, so thank you for feeling comfortable to share that with our audience as well.

AJ: Yeah.

SB: Um, so you mentioned too, you have these skills as an educator, your background is in K-12 education, and now you work with educators. We would love to hear more about your thoughts and experiences and education in the Midwest. And just like, what is most poignant for you to share with us and our audience?

AJ: Yeah. So I mentioned that I was inspired to become an educator because of really great teachers in my life. Teachers who knew how to foster community and connection and safety in a classroom. So when I entered the profession, I really looked to those mentors and models to model my practice in my classroom.

When I entered the classroom and moved from, you know, Wisconsin for the first time to this metropolitan area, um, and began teaching, I quickly learned about one of Minnesota's best kept secrets. And that is that our school system, contrary to what I think so many of us have heard and believed for a long time, our school system is not working. It is not working for all kids equally. And in fact, kids of color do not have access to the type of quality education that most white students do in the state of Minnesota. When presented with that knowledge, I joined our district's equity team and began working with a cohort of teachers on changing practices and policies in our district to close the opportunity gap. I remember entering into one of those meetings and looking at some statistics about teachers of color, and realizing that I, at that moment, was not teaching with one person of color on our team.

So we know that if a student even has one teacher of color in their elementary experience, their chances of graduation, of staying in the classroom, are profoundly higher. And so that was a place where we started, and we also were realizing that the disproportionality in discipline practices was a huge problem in our district, that students of color were much more likely to be sent out of the room on referral or suspension, or even expulsion, than their white peers. As a group, when we decided to advocate for the implementation of these recommendations, to make this right, we came up against a lot of systemic barriers. Whether it was the district policy, the mindset of other teachers, or this like institutional bias, it was extremely frustrating.

I decided at that point and got involved with a few community groups that, um, I wanted to step out of the classroom and organize other teachers who were connected around this belief that Minnesota must do better for our students. And also because I believe that there are teachers currently in the classroom that need to be leading on these issues, and that teachers on the ground know what's best for their students and to elevate their voices—these anti-racist, equity-minded, student-centered teachers—to elevate their voices, to all levels of decision making is the way that we can make really sweeping and transformational change for kids. And was really inspired by this idea, and so I transitioned out of the classroom into what I currently do, which is just that.

So I currently, as you mentioned, work with teachers; we get them involved in researching and writing policy, and then train them on implementation and advocacy practices at whatever level makes sense to advocate for those policies, and with a real eye toward training these teachers to maybe even run for office one day, to become those decision makers and those leaders, um, to again, make that transformational change for kids.

SB: Wow.

CP: I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that and speaking on that, Alex. That kind of ties into something else we want to talk about, which is: you're actively engaged in anti-racist work and learning around anti-racism and I'm totally gonna steal—or I guess I'm, uh, the following prompt is a modified version, or is inspired by something that Amani brought to Institute for one of our trainings earlier this year. So I'm interested to know, like as a white person committed to racial justice, um, what is something that you think we need to stop? What is something you think we need to start? And what is something you think we need to continue?

AJ: Oh, there's so much. And I think, um, I'm absolutely in this learning space as well. Um, I think for me, what comes to mind when thinking about what to stop is performative allyship, which is a term that is, like, in the conversation a lot right now. I think a lot of people, when they think about performative allyship, it's like in the context of reshares on social media posts, but I also think about it as knowing what to say and when to say it to like, demonstrate that you're "woke" or that you're one of the quote-unquote "good ones." And I think that for so many white people, um, that moment when we say something that sounds woke, um, it feels rewarding, like we're given immediate feedback, but actually, like, grinding against the dominant forces of like, racism and oppression is not rewarding at all. And in fact, it'll, it'll beat you up.

Um, and so I think like, white liberals have gotten really good at demonstrating that we understand the problem, but stop short of actually working to bring justice or when we're asked to give something up like safety, or money, or notoriety or whatever, we sort of seize up and get defensive and hope that someone else will just do it. And I think, you know, like it or not, we're all conditioned to be, like, little soldiers for whiteness. So this like white gaze, I think, you know, it's sort of our diet culture—and actually I think that they're sort of both the same thing—but this like white gaze is staring us down and rewarding us when we make the right moves in order to uphold the status quo. And I think it takes work and intentionality and vulnerability to get comfortable in like doing the work, but also not getting those rewards anymore. So, stop the performative allyship, I would say.

Something that I think also for me, that performative allyship shows up in ways that I'm not even aware of, and so, um, I think that brings me to my start, which is to point out those things that we're not aware of to other white people and to do so by focusing on our network of influence. I think to be more strategic, especially—and I don't know a lot about social media and like the algorithms or whatever that is—but what I do know is that I see a lot of posts that I agree with and they're posted by people that share a lot of my same points of views. So I think we need to be a little bit more strategic about, um, seeing, or finding, groups of people for you to go and talk to about this stuff, to point out what they're not aware of. I think that work is political. I think that work means facing and entering into spaces of power and discomfort, um, to disrupt that, and to make way for, for the conversation, if the conversation isn't there yet.

I think to keep doing, um, I think we need to keep electing anti-racist leaders. Ibram X Kendi wrote How to Be an Anti-Racist, and it really focuses on anti-racist policy as sort of the place to center efforts to make sweeping anti-racist change, and we know that policy is created largely by elected leaders. Um, and so to be seeking out those, uh, folks who bring that mindset. So I think we need to keep finding those leaders and lifting them up, and I am heartened by the fact that that's happening at multiple levels. I see it happening locally in the Twin Cities. I see it happening at the state level and nationwide, and I think that's work that we've got to keep doing. We need to keep throwing our resources of time, money, and advocacy behind these anti-racist leaders.

CP: Awesome. Thank you.

SB: Yeah. I think that speaks to a feeling of listlessness or impotency that people might have about where they need to start putting their energy into lots different avenues with social change. If you—I know that there's not a silver bullet for those situations, like you said, you're going to get beat up by the work and it needs to be done—but what would be one piece of advice, or one thing that you might suggest to help people pick a direction or for them to start to feel empowered, to take action?

AJ: Oh, yeah. It's hard to pick one thing, and, I think that I could probably use some advice on this too.

SB: Okay! (Alex laughs) Appreciate that.

AJ: Yeah. For me it's like. It has been get a good therapist that is trauma- and oppression-informed and who has a health at every size lens, and like, confront the barriers from our past and from our personal experiences that get in the way of bringing, um, bringing our energy and focus to this work.

And also that bring our best relational self to this work, to build and grow in community. I think so often, for me, it has been past experiences and traumas that lead me feeling like it's difficult to de-center my own narrative in my activism. And that's really dangerous waters to wade into, and I own that I've been there and it has been like a good therapist that has helped me address some experiences from my past and also like current experiences, um, that sort of get in the way for—get in the way of my ability to build relationships and lean into those relationships and community to lift up the people who are doing this work and to keep moving it forward.

SB: Acknowledging that you can't do this type of work if you keep focusing yourself. I think that's where we see a lot of white exceptionalism, white fragility, all of that coming to a center. Um, especially if you hold that white identity, so.

Oh, thank you so much, Alex. This is really important information. I am so honored—I know I keep saying this—but I'm so honored to get to hear this from you. It's not a normal conversation. You don't really get to hear this in any, any person you engage with. Um, so this is slightly linked to the last question, but what is one thing that you may suggest, based on your experience with the pandemic right now, that has brought you a lot of joy?

AJ: Oof. Ok, well I feel like my experience, like most people's during all of this has had a lot of peaks and valleys. And—

CP: —TRUTH! (Alex laughs)

AJ: I started quarantine, like, baking bread. And I even bought this like, cross stitch hand embroidery kit and like these basic things to like, try to do, that like were inspired by other people on the internet doing and just like, I think trying to find like, I don't know, a new thing to do, and it was fun, but it's like not really me and it just, you know, kind of went away. But summer hit and—oh! The other thing that we've been doing, my partner and I, I think we're on our 18th season of Survivor since like, March 20th. (Saraya laughs)

CP: YES! Get that reality TV in there.

AJ: Eight. Teen. I'm like, proud, and also slightly embarrassed to share it. I have to tell you, Survivor—while it has its many problems, and like the United States' glaring flaws are very present in this series—I think is the greatest game ever designed. I love watching all of the social dynamics play out. I don't know. I just love it. Highly recommend if you haven't, like me, haven't watched it since, uh, you know, for many years.

CP: And it got more radical, right? 'Cause like, my besties are really into Survivor, and they let me know like some of the most recent episodes they've been, it's like a lot more like conversations about race and like more like social issues being openly discussed.

AJ: Yes. From what I'm seeing on the internet, that is true. We have Hulu, we're watching it on Hulu, and I think the most recent season is from like, I don't know, eight plus years ago? Um, but yes, from what I'm seeing on the internet, that is true. And I'm seeing petitions since the murder of George Floyd for Survivor to bring even more intentionality to that conversation, since it is a show where like, social dynamics are sort of at the, you know, that's the lifeblood of the entertainment and of the game. Um, so loving, loving that.

And also for the first time we're starting a garden and that has been a practice of like, embracing imperfection, and we have a little flower garden and some herbs and, you know, some things are thriving, some things are dying. I was introduced to Japanese beetles, which are currently ravaging my impatiens, and you know, I'm absolutely at war with them, little buggers, but it's been fun. So those are a few things we've been up to.

SB: Oh, I love that. I love that because, yeah, I think if you want to capture the U.S., go back to early days of reality TV (Alex: For real) and Survivor is such a capsule of that, that's so interesting.

And then, your poor impatiens. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

AJ: It's okay. If you have, if anyone out there has any tips on ridding our yard of Japanese beetles, please hit me up.

CP: We will share your social media as long as you're okay with that Alex, and people can truly hit you up and let you know the secrets they might have to alleviating this problem.

AJ: Hit me up in those DMs. (Cat laughs)

SB: Wonderful. Okay. Well Alex, this is the point where we like to say thank you for telling your story—

CP+SB: —as a matter of fat!

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CP: Oof, that was such a great conversation!

SB: Alex was such a conscientious educator throughout the NLC Leadership Institute, so it was an absolute pleasure to share a tiny insight to that experience with you all and learn more than I could have dreamed.

CP: I'm so happy we could talk with Alex here on Matter of Fat. I loved working alongside him last year. He just has so much wisdom to share and also is the most fun. Uh, and now it's time for—

CP+SB: —Dirt and Discourse!

CP: It's time for the dirt and discourse. This is where we dive into the excitement and discomfort around relevant pop and cultural happenings.

SB: Last summer we said “wear whatever you want,” and we're here to say that that's still true and also different. And that's what we wanna discuss today. What does wearing what you want look like when you're truly not dressing for others or pandemic-prohibiting social situations?

CP: We’re talking about how being home 25/8 has changed our personal style and habits in a way that feels worthy of some discourse.

SB: Oh my gosh. 25/8, I love it. Okay. So let’s—

CP: —I love it! It's 110%. It's like, you know, more, but—I love it.

SB: Always. Constant. Okay. So let's start with clothes. So much fat stuff starts with fashion, so why break away from that? So I've never really been a person to have like, oodles of outfits—that's where Cat and I kind of differ—but in the pandemic, I’ve really curated a capsule wardrobe, completely unplanned. So it's not necessarily seasonal, but I have the same few pieces that are like the most comfortable, the best color combos and just like a very chill overall vibe. So some great earth tone dresses and cardigans and soft fabrics and leggings. It's like truly like I'm abating the pandemic panic by choosing clothing that I would—I mean, I wouldn't have normally worn with such consistency pre-pandemic, but it's just very soothing to me.

Um, let's see, what else—also, like no shoes ever pleased. I've got like two pairs I've worn this whole time. I'm loving it. Some sneakies and just some Birks. That's all I need.

CP: Okay. Love this capsule, but no shoes, like not even slippers or house shoes or things around the house?

SB: House shoes? Nope, footloose and fancy free over here, brah!

CP: (laughs) Okay. I guess I don't know, I still wear Birks even when I'm home. I think a few years ago, like, I transitioned from being more comfortable barefoot to more comfortable in supportive shoes. Uh, so in summary, I am my mother.

SB: I love your mom! I love your mom. Okay. But what has fashion and clothing looked like for you, Cat?

CP: I guess I find myself really prioritizing comfort, you know? Like, so for me, this looks like wearing even more athleisure than normal. And even if I'm wearing an actual outfit, there is a 9 out of 10 chance that it's just something thrown over bike shorts and a sports bra. I also wear compression socks a lot in the summer, 'cause my ankles and feet get swollen pretty easily—something that's like more, pronounced in summer, especially if I can't go swimming as often as I'd like. So I find myself being less interested in like making my outfit work with them, and instead just like, wearing them all the time.

But, you know, like I will say, I think for me, clothing—and even makeup to some extent—is like, helpful in terms of routine or feeling like myself. I notice like, if I'm feeling crabby or in a bit of a funk—which, we've talked about the emotional roller coaster that is the pandemic—it does help me if I put on like a cute outfit and earrings and do my makeup. I find that most days if I leave the house or like, go on Zoom, I do put makeup on, even if it's just like BB cream, brow gel, mascara.

I mean, okay, like why we wear makeup could be a hold Dirt and Discourse in and of itself. And honestly, like, it would probably be a dissertation topic. It's very complicated and complex. But what I do know is that for me, there's something about wearing makeup that just like makes me feel good. So I do it.

SB: Hmm. Yeah. Like I've never been a makeup-heavy person, but my skincare game has definitely elevated. And it's kind of like what you were talking about. It's more about the ritual of it I think; just having some time to cleanse, apply toner, like choose a moisturizer is just so, so good. And then like, slathering sunscreen all over it. I just feel more, like, put together, even though there's probably no visual difference for others.

CP: Yeah. I totally get that. It's really interesting to consider like the things we do for other people versus just for ourselves. And one of those things, like I realized I love smelling good, even when I'm not spending time with anyone but myself. So I still wear perfume most days, and I always put on like, good-smelling lotion before bed.

SB: You do love a good lotion and a smell. Remember (starts laughing) when you licked that body scrub cube from the Fab Fit Fun box? (Cat starts laughing) You said that it smelled so good, and it did. I mean, good enough to lick, I guess.

CP: Okay, it smelled like candy—

SB: —this is a public service announcement: don't eat candy-flavored items. Jessica Simpson’s lip gloss and lotions are not on the shelves still.

CP: Okay, I didn't eat it! I did lick it, but it smelled so good! I just loved it. And maybe this all sounds like, very contradictory, because I do always wanna smell good, but I noticed like with, um, you know, the idea of what I do for myself versus for other people, my natural tendencies in terms of hygiene and grooming are a lot more laissez-faire when I'm not around other people. I say that because like, I'm not really a super frequent showerer or hair washer anyway, but I've been pushing it very—just farther and farther as the days go by.

SB: So I think I shower the same or even more these days to be honest. Um, but I think it was different at the onset of the pandemic. So I tried the whole no shampoo thing for March and April and just like, I really committed. I committed hard. It didn't work for me. And I think maybe I over-indexed on the oily hair. However, taking that time to really assess what made me and my hair feel better was great. And I wouldn't have done that. I wouldn't have had the time or have been as comfortable with trying that out, if I was going into the office every day, or going out socially or just like the Zoom filter, you know, you can't get that zoom in look on your hair follicles, so it worked out, so. (Both laugh)

Also like, I paint my nails now regularly, what's that about? I truly don't know. I used to be pretty hit-or-miss with the press-on manicures that Cat actually got me into and regular manicures, but now I'm finding it so enjoyable to pick a color and allow enough time for that stuff to dry, I probably just wasn't patient enough before. And this is for no one but me, and it just sparks so much joy when I see that color throughout the day, and it just feels really lovely.

CP: I love that, I love that for you. And honestly, like with time, it's like, there's just maybe like a little more time to sit and dry and kind of, maybe the ritual of it all again, too, you know?

SB: Yeah.

CP: Something else related to this is that like, I still do remove my body hair, but I am happy to let it get much longer than I might normally if I was seeing people more often. This is actually where like, face mask fashion has been really nice. I'm way less self-conscious about hair on my lip or my chin, because you know, it is just all covered up whenever I'm interacting with anyone.

SB: Oh my gosh, face mask fashion, baby! Um, okay. So I think my accumulation of cloth masks corresponds to my realization that I'll be in this pandemic for a hot minute. 'Cause like, at first I was like, "Oh no, I have two, that's fine." (Cat: No.) Now I'm like, no, that was early days; now I'm at one for each day of the week and it feels so weird to go outside not wearing one, like I would never.

Okay. So I got on a little bit of a tangent there, but I will say like related to wearing things and, you know, bodies being different, I will say that my body has definitely changed with a more sedentary schedule, with pandemic. It just has. I also feel like there has been more time to be mindful of the choices I'm making or how I'm spending my time, like longer walks outside, or being aware of how much time is spent looking at a screen. It's the first time in my life where my body size change hasn't elicited the same amount of concern or shame, because I can see why it's happening. And I also understand that my body is keeping me healthy and allowing me to do my best getting through this, so.

CP: Yeah. You know, mine probably has too, but I, I wouldn't really know because I'm just wearing bike shorts exclusively. (Saraya laughs) And honestly, like it's something I'm not trying to spend a lot of time focusing on. Like you, I'm just happy I'm makin' it through all of this.

SB: Yeah. And there you have it. I mean, while, you know, Wear What You Want 2020 versus Wear What You Want 2019 feels a little different, it's still just as true as ever. '

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SB: All right, that's it! That was the episode. This is the outro.

CP: Ope, it's here! (Both laugh) I hope you'll join us for our next Podluck. To learn more and RSVP, visit our website, matteroffatpod.com. You'll find Podluck info on our "Events" page under the "Connect" tab in our menu. You'll also find show notes, transcripts, and lots more on our website.

SB: Please subscribe, and it truly really helps to rate and review the podcast wherever you catch Matter of Fat.

CP: And find us on social media! Like Saraya mentioned earlier, we're doing some really fun stuff with our Instagram stories. The whole team is involved, so there's a chance to hear from all of us.

SB: I'm really building my quote-unquote, "Certified Bad at Social Media" brand out here, y'all! So like, be on the lookout for that, and also catch Cat and the assistants as they share some really lovely, insightful things. We're @matteroffatpod on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook.

CP: Find us there so you can stay in touch 'til next time when we're back for another episode of—

CP+SB: —Matter of Fat!

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