S3E1 - Kachina Yaeger, Dakotah Language, + “Unprecedented Times” - Transcript
Released July 29th, 2020. For complete episode info, visit this page!
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Cat Polivoda: Welcome to Matter of Fat, a body positive podcast with Midwest sensibilities.
Hi! I’m Cat Polivoda, a local fat feminist, shop owner, and it’s summer and everything’s inflamed—my allergies, the government, white supremacy. I mean, basically, everything’s on fire. I am joined by my co-host & producer, Saraya Boghani.
Saraya Boghani: (laughs) I can’t do, not “everything’s on fire”—
CP: —it is!—
SB: —Hi, I’m Saraya! I’m a fat, multiracial Minneapolitan millennial who, similarly, is just doin’ her best.
CP: You are!
SB: Thank you! (Both laugh)
CP: On Matter of Fat, we're here to talk about the cultural politics of fat liberation with a Midwest perspective.
SB: We’re so happy to be back for our first full episode of season 3!
CP: Yes! We’re very into our MoF minis, but it feels so so good to be back with a full ep.
SB: Sure does! Let’s get into it starting with—
CP+SB: —The Fat Dish!
[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]
CP: It’s time for The Fat Dish, where we share—or “dish”—about what’s going on with us!
SB: That’s right! This season, we’re mixing it up a bit, and reserving The Fat Dish for fun Matter of Fat developments and your regular Cat and Saraya catch up! If we have any rad fat events to share, we’ll do that at the end of the episode.
CP: Wow, it feels like it’s been forever since we’ve dished on the pod!
SB: We have so much to catch up on in these unprecedented times. (Cat laughs) That’s right, folks, I said it! I mean, honestly, what is the point of even saying “unprecedented times”? That phrase is so hollow, and does so little to encapsulate everything that is taking place in our community and in the world.
CP: That’s right!
SB: So, we’re gonna be really explicit with what, exactly, is unprecedented. Cat and I live in Minneapolis. We, along with our neighbors and loved ones, witnessed and are living through George Floyd’s murder, white supremacist actions and repercussions, and a growing awareness of vast racial disparity across a nation built to oppress and profit from that oppression.
CP: We stand in solidarity with Black Lives Matter and our Twin Cities community. We grieve the loss of George Floyd and countless other Black lives, and we are incensed and outraged by their murders at the hands of white supremacy and racist policing.
SB: We fully support the current uprising taking place in Minneapolis and beyond. We're embracing police abolition and are working to learn more about how to engage and practice it.
CP: While folks have been doing this work around calling to defund the police for a very long time, it honestly took me too long to get on board and think about police abolition as a serious option. But George Floyd’s murder has really changed my heart around this.
I am no longer cool with a “working from within” approach, or a police reform perspective. I’m here for us taking money away from police, and investing it into community-centered resources around homelessness, mental health, and other approaches to meet community needs without the police.
SB: Yeah, I’ve been aware of police abolition but never took the time to understand what it was. My privilege allowed me to not prioritize or add urgency to understanding a radical re-imagining of community safety. I’ve known about MPD 150, a project—actually, Cat will talk about in a moment—for a while. I’ve enjoyed seeing it develop from afar, and celebrating that our community is building it. All the while, not realizing how integral the MPD 150, the work of Reclaim the Block, Black Visions Collective, and the Minnesota Freedom Fund is to our local and national well-being.
CP: Yes! A little about MPD 150 specifically, ‘cuz they’ve done so much work around putting together resources around police abolition.
MPD 150 is led by local organizers, researchers, artists, and activists who are working toward a police-free Minneapolis. They’re calling for meaningful structural change around police violence in Minneapolis as opposed to simple police reforms, and are presenting a practical pathway for dismantling the Minneapolis Police Department.
This includes things like transferring the MPD’s social service functions to community-based agencies, replacing emergency intervention functions with models not based on military methods, and a redirection of resources to support community resilience.
SB: We listed some resources on social media and in our most recent MoF Moment, which is a great newsletter we’ve created as part of a season 3 initiative with the help of our amazing podcast assistants. We’ll also link those resources in our show notes. Some local organizations that should be on your radar are: Reclaim the Block, Black Visions Collective, the Minnesota Freedom Fund, and Women for Political Change.
CP: There are also two great resources we’ll link for you to find places to donate and support to fund the revolution. Uprising MN and Reclaim the Block's list for funding the movement.
SB: Okay, so that all was just part of the unprecedented times. Cat, do you want to start with murder hornets, or the fact that aliens are real, or—ok, what did we put in our notes that I just said—I said, “insert whatever new nonsense has occurred since we last talked.” Ok, where would you like to start?
CP: Wow, I don’t know, let’s just go with the pandemic.
SB: Ok sure, yeah, the casual pandemic--it’s awful. It’s not casual, it’s truly awful, and I will say I’m also really lucky to be able to talk about how awful it is with you, Cat, and to have a project like Matter of Fat to work on and have a job that allows me to be safe and have stability.
It’s disheartening that we’re seeing a consistent lack of direction and leadership based on caring for people, the people of this country and the world. The pandemic is complex in that I’m strengthening important relationships in my life in new ways but am physically apart from the people that I need the most. It’s so very hard that it took a pandemic for people to come together and react to the atrocities committed against Black folks and vulnerable populations for forever.
CP: Yup! I am not a fan of pandemics— (laughs)
SB: —You’re in good company—
C: —I’ve been really committed to self isolating as much as possible—and I know you have too, Saraya, which I think is important and is also completely a privilege. As a business owner, this has been pretty rough. I did decide to keep my shop closed now, even now when I’m legally allowed to reopen. It just doesn’t feel right. And, definitely part of what’s informed that is fear for our fat community.
There’s varying perspectives on if being fat heightens your chances for contracting COVID but, like usual, it’s less about actually being fat and more about underlying conditions that some fat people have--conditions which, of course, some people who aren’t fat also have.
But more frightening to me is that weight stigma and fatphobia are also present in our medical systems. I am afraid fat folks aren’t getting the same quality of care that others do--care now and, honestly, always--and I’m feeling really protective of our community right now.
We also know that weight discrimination disproportionately impacts people of color as it’s compounded with additional systemic inequities and bias within healthcare. So yeah, unprecedented times, but also—
SB: Also, also exactly, also it’s just not so unprecedented. What is going on is just bringing to light issues that have been there all along.
CP: Yup! And, you’re right Saraya—
SB: (laughs) —As usual, thank you!—
CP: (laughs) —ok, yeah, you’re right about this, but also you’re right about how it’s been so nice to have Matter of Fat to work on with you.
SN: Awww.
CP: We haven’t had an in-person work time in months. It’s been all about FaceTime and Zoom.
SN: Except for when we went to protest together.
CP: Oh yeah! But other than that, it’s been all digital—and now we’re even using Zencastr as we remote record!
SB: Yeah boy, we’re not coming from the studio anymore! We’re coming to you from our respective apartments and, most likely, under a blanket or a sheet to help us sound as good as possible. It’s an audio thing, not just a blanket fort thing, I promise.
CP: Ok but it’s like a little about the blanket fort.
SB: A little bit, yeah.
CP: There are lots of Matter of Fat developments we’d like to share, so let's do a quick recap!
In February, we presented at DePaul University in Chicago. Shoutout to friend of the pod and friend of ours, Mycall, for beginning us to DePaul. And Susun, friend of the pod and BFF, for letting us stay with her in Chicago!
SB: I love friends! I love those friends. Know what else I love?
CP: Yeees?
SB: (laughs) You sound so suspicious! I love our three amazing Matter of Fat assistants!
CP: Yes!
SB: I must say, it was difficult to choose from all the people who applied! We are so psyched to be working with Lindsay Bankole, Cindy Kuehl, and Erin Sandsmark.
Lindsay is building out the process and making transcripts a reality for Matter of Fat, which is a key part to making this project more accessible. Cindy is lending her strategic media and business acumen to our growth. And Erin is helming the newsletters, listener surveys, and sponsorship development for us.
CP: Love them! It’s been so fun to have Matter of Fat team meetings with our little crew! And, we genuinely just really enjoy each and every one of our amazing assistants.
SB: I just like, have to admit, the assistant role was something that Cat suggested when we were talking about everything we wanted to do, and it just felt beyond what we could do with this project at the time to me. But lo and behold how rich and wonderful this season has already been for us since adding them to the team. We are so excited to have you benefit from all of our work! So part of that is new things, like a new website!
CP: Yeah! We created a website where all of our episodes and show notes live. We also started a newsletter that we plan to send out to y’all monthly. And, you can get ON the newsletter list ON our website!
SB: Cat do you, like, want them to go to the website or something?
CP: GO TO THE WEBSITE! (laughs) I worked so hard on the website.
SB: She worked really hard, it looks amazing, and I also think, based on how this episode is going, we should also create a Matter of Fat bingo card and have “website” be at least 3 squares for y’all. It’d be fun, something to do at home while listening.
CP: Ok, thank you Saraya—and also, shut up about the bingo (Saraya laughs)—but also, yes, please go to the website.
SB: We hope you’ve enjoyed the Matter of Fat minis, which are also new, that kicked off our season. It’s been such a delight to create the info-packed resource minisodes about foundational topics for us, like fat liberation, fatphobia, and body positivity! Our hope is that you'll enjoy our minisodes, learn something new or reflect on the topic in a new way, and share them with others.
CP: Annnnnd, the last little development: tomorrow is our first Podluck! We've dreamed up Podlucks as a fun way for us to discuss podcasts virtually, all as a Matter of Fat.
SB: So kind of like a POTluck, kind of like a book club, and credit for the perfectly punny name of “Podluck” goes to Matter of Fat assistant Lindsay!
We’ll discuss an episode from a podcast we love at each podluck. Folks can listen to the ep before our discussion, and join us for a book club style discussion as a matter of fat.
CP: In tomorrow’s Podluck, we're discussing an episode of The Nod where they interview Sabrina Strings, author of Fearing the Black Body: The Racial Origins of Fatphobia.
SB: Remember Sabrina Strings from our Fatphobia Matter of Fat mini?
CP: Hope you do! We are excited to chat more about her work tomorrow! The Podluck RSVP link in our show notes.
SB: Uh, what’s left? Maybe like, a little personal check-in? Ok, even more Cat and Saraya catch-up time? Which, Cat is convinced y’all are interested in. I, on the other hand, am here to just like, check sound levels and my blanket fort status.
CP: (laughs) Uh, Saraya, tell the people what else has been going on with you? I mean, you know, just like a quick little six-month recap?
SB: Oh gosh, ok, each day is a week, and each week is a month, and I’m really bad at math so that’s a lot of time to account for.
Um, okay, in no order of precedence or importance: I finished my Master’s degree and attended a commencement ceremony in person with SO many other people, which just feels like, ABSOLUTELY illegal right now.
CP: Yikes!
SB: Uh, yeah. I began and finished my time in the 2020 Twin Cities New Leaders Council cohort and learned so much about strategic communication, leadership, fundraising, and got to know some fantastic people doing really good work in the Midwest, which was awesome. I applied for and am a member of the NLC board Baby’s first board position!
CP: Yes! I’m so happy to be on the NLC Twin Cities board with you, Saraya!
SB: So much more time where we get to hang out and just like talk about great things—
CP: —and you know, Cat and Saraya catch-up!
SB: Oh God—(Cat laughs)—I haven’t thought this through. No, I am excited for that! Ok, what else has happened in the last six months?
I got a promotion at work which was exciting, but which was also weird to celebrate in the early days of shelter-in-place. I, with the help of Cat, figured out how to audio engineer this show in a completely new way.
CP: You’re doing it! We’re doing it!
SB: We sure are! You’re listening to it right now, y’all have proof that we’re doing it!
What else have I been doing? I turned 30, I’ve drastically increased my time on Twitter which is nothing, that’s not news.
Ok ok wait! Here is something useful and good. I’ve helped my friend and NLC colleague Christa Mims caucus and run for an open Minneapolis Public School Board seat. Christa is everything and I would encourage anyone to vote for her if you can. The primary is on August 11th, so figure out your plan folks! Check the show notes for voting info. And vote for Christa Mims!
CP: Yes, love Christa, love voting.
And—ok, I guess I will just give you a real quick and dirty over here, with what’s going on with me.
I went to Germany in February, and it was incredible to be back in Germany, and really tough to come home. Then, shortly after I came home, I had to close my shop because of COVID and I’ve been operating my business virtually ever since, which is a lot of work for a lot less profit, but thankfully my customers have been so so so wonderful and I know Cake will bounce back when we get back to like, a new normal.
What else? Um, I turned 33. I’ve been watching a lot of TV. Like, flying through entire seasons and series of Homeland, and Scandal, and Quantico—recommend by Saraya—and Caliphate, and Killing Eve—also recommended by Saraya—and Queen Sono, which not only serve as great distractions but also have me thinking every government official and agency is unscrupulous af, only out for themselves, and just like, very deeply flawed.
SB: Uh Cat, y’know I hate to tell you, but your FBI agent is making some really big calls right now, you should watch out.
CP: Ok, I’m sure they are, but honestly it feels like these shows might be keeping a glimmer of accuracy to them. And I don’t know, something about this genre of suspense of TV is just like, exactly what I need right now.
I, of course, have also, been listening to quite a few audiobooks. And just, ya know, just living in a real mixed bag of emotions. Like, everything is fine—for me, anyway, everything’s fine, and also like, not great.
Ok, but ya know what is very, very great? The interview we’re about to get into!
[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]
SB: Our first interview of the season! Kachina Yeager is a delight and you don’t even know how lucky you are to be on the cusp of hearing our conversation with her.
CP: Kachina is a friend and former Cake intern who often still helps out at the shop. We so loved getting to chat with her about her connection to the Dakotah language, her fellowship at Milkweed Editions, book AND audiobook recommendations, and, of course, to hear her story as a matter of fat.
SB: That context is really helpful as we’ll hear mention of Cake, the Fat Splash—which is a pool party hosted by Cake Plus-Size Resale. You’ll also hear reference to HAES, H-A-E-S which stands for Health at Every Size. We hope you enjoy the interview!
CP: Kachina, we're so happy you're here with us today!
Kachina Yaeger: I'm happy to be here!
CP: We want to start out by asking everyone what we ask on our podcast, which is: what is your story, as a matter of fat?
KY: Well, I guess to start off, maybe I should say how I came to be here. Um, which is, I met Cat through working at—well, actually first shopping at Cake, like a lot—
CP: —oh, yeah! (laughs)
KY: Um, and then being one of the first summer interns at Cake, and now I help with online work, and I love it.
CP: And I love you for it! (Kachina laughs)
SB: And I love watching it all unfold on social media! (Cat and Kachina laugh)
KY: Yeah, I guess, um, I kind of thought about this question, like historically for myself, and kind of just like my historical relationship to fatness, and how I got to here. So, the first time that I remember being conscious of fatness and like my own feelings around it in, like, an explicit, in-my-face way was in the seventh grade, which was the first time boy ever called me fat. It was so vivid that I—I like even remember what I was wearing, you know? (Cat: Oh.) And at that time I was not fat. Like, I was a really lanky middle schooler, actually. I didn't realize, though, how much sort of under-the-surface work was going in, in my daily life--and my whole life, I guess, at that point--to make sure that fatness was something that hurt when it was thrown at me, and would derail my sense of self in a big way. But it really wasn't until that day that I began to kind of consciously listen to those messages that had been under the surface my whole life, happening around me of, you know, like toxic diet culture.
I would say that that sort of mindset really stuck with me 'til like the end of high school, probably. And, I don't know. I think I was just kind of in a war with my own body, like I think a lot of teenage girls are. And basically I grew into adulthood and, as biology does, I also grew into my body, and my body grew with me. So it really wasn't until I was just coming into adulthood that I really began to consider myself fat.
Luckily, my best friends are really incredible fat women who have had that experience much longer than myself. I think the first time I vividly realized I was a no-longer-lanky teenager was in a Forever 21 dressing room.
I was having a little bit of a meltdown because, I don't know, I just couldn't find anything that fit me. And I was just sitting there like, "I'm at the top end of sizing. I don't know what else to do. Like what am I supposed to do from here?" And my friends were like, "Um, yeah, so there's plus sizes, ya goof ball." (Cat and Saraya laugh)
And it just opened up a whole new world, and like, new relationship to my body to be like, "Oh, you mean there's clothes that are made to fit my body?" And like, within, you know—there's obviously still restrictions on that these days, in terms of like plus sizing that actually fits people and fits all of our different styles, but at that time it was like opening a door to a whole new world. And I was like, “Okay, I can do this maybe.”
And so, yeah, I'm just really eternally, endlessly grateful to the wonderful women and the wonderful fat people in my life who have kind of helped me get to this point. I think at that point, entering the new world of like, "Oh, there's plus size clothing and I'm in a new body that it's okay for me to acknowledge in a different way."
I was still kind of insecure and struggling to find my footing within the world of like, body acceptance and fat liberation. I definitely was not familiar with those terms at all yet either. I think I had kind of an epiphany in the car. My partner Lars and I were sitting in the car, driving to the North Shore, and we were listening to NPR, and Lindy West was actually on the radio talking about Shrill.
SB: Love her.
CP: Yes!
KY: Yes. And it was life-changing, literally. That was the first time that I've, I'd ever heard somebody publicly talking about fatness. It was the first time that I had ever publicly heard someone talking about fatness in a positive light and like pushing back on, you know, as she talks about, like pushing back on the narratives of like obesity is a health epidemic.
And, um, she's also just talking about like dealing with internet trolls and relation to fatness too. And I just, I remember turning that story up and just being completely lost in it. We got to where we were going and I was like, “what do you mean we're already here? I'm staying in the car to finish listening to this1”
So like immediately after that interview was done on NPR, I ordered Shrill, and I read it and ended up taking a deep dive from there into like, radical fat politics, which is really awesome. And I, I followed Lindy on social media right after that, and just like, a bunch of other different fat influencers.
And then I was lucky enough to be involved in an internship at a local org in the cities, where there were some fellow fat folks working. I had just started going into that "health at every size" world, but it was still very like, online-centered. Like it wasn't localized for me yet. Like, I think I was coming to terms with it internally, but I hadn't externally started to talk about fat politics or body liberation really.
Um, and then one of the women that I was working with at this org, she posted a line about Cake opening up. (Cat: Oh!) And I was like, it's like, "oh, that'd be so cool!" And to my other fat friends, I was like, "we should go to this, like when it opens up, I think that would be really cool!" And so we did, and we found ourselves at Cake a lot more. And, I don't know, I just felt like it gave us, as fat friends, like a vehicle to talk about fatness and like body positivity, and body liberation, and a bit more of like community around fatness, which I think we didn't realize that we needed.
And yeah, and then the internship really just launched me fully into like, accepting my own body and just feeling really confident and comfortable talking about fatness, especially the first Fat Splash. That was like, such a big deal for me. (Cat gasps) I loved it so much. It was like--I don't know, it was like, I felt like I could sit there and eat my nachos at the pool without people being like, "Oh, she's eating nachos at the pool."
CP: Right!
KY And I was just like, I don't know. It was so fun to just like, swim and be in community. And I just loved it. I loved it so much.
And also--I think too, something interesting that happened, um, right towards the end of my internship I ended up having some conversations with some fellow fat Indigenous people that I know. And we talked a lot about how fatness intersects with decolonialism and anti-racism work. So I'm just really interested in that intersection now, too. So I think that's my story as a matter of fat!
CP: Kachina, ever since I've known you, you've been very involved and like engaged with your Dakotah culture and language, and I'd just love to hear you talk about like the role that has in your life. Especially the language component, 'cause I've always been so fascinated by your work around that.
KY: Yeah, definitely. So I am Bdewakanthuwan Dakotah from Tinta Winta, which is Prairie Island here in Minnesota. I started learning Dakotah language, I think when I was 11 or 12-ish?
My family had just moved back to Minnesota. I say back to, even though my mom and dad had never lived in Minnesota prior to when we moved here together, but it is my ancestral home. Um, so we moved back when I was 10, and then pretty immediately our language program on the island started, got founded, and I went in. It was like a weekly class. It was very beginner, like for kids. Um, and I think it set me up really to—like, even though I don't, I didn't become fluent or anything in the time that I was learning as a preteen or teenager, but it did definitely set me up to grasp language a lot better now, because I have like, sort of the ability to understand basic pronunciation and, you know, being able to see words and be able to be like, "Oh, yep, I know how that's pronounced." Which is like—it doesn't seem like much on the surface, but when you're in it and like learning, you're like, "Oh, okay, that's actually so helpful.”
So these days, I take Dakotah language online through the U of M. They have a really great program there that—it's just very accessible, which I like a lot. It's available online, so you have people all across Dakotah country on there. So that stretches—these days, generally speaking—stretches anywhere from Canada, to Nebraska, out through the Dakotas and here to Minnesota. But, you know, being 2020, Dakotah people live everywhere, so it's really cool to be able to all have like an online gathering space focused around the language. And yeah, I also spent last summer doing classes on the island, Prairie Island, as well.
Yeah, it's been a really meaningful process for me. I wouldn't by any means call myself a speaker, and probably realistically I'd still consider myself a beginner. but I'm definitely trying to incorporate language into my life in as meaningful a way as possible. It's kind of a parallel I think, I think that in a similar way that having the language around body liberation helped me kind of understand and make peace with my own body, becoming familiar with Dakotah language and understanding the way it works and functions and looks, and I think most importantly feels. Like, I think that's the most important thing about Dakotah language, at least for me, is just like how it feels. Like in your body and like coming off your tongue, it's just like, it's very healing.
And so, I've been trying to incorporate it into my daily life as much as possible. And in our current era of quarantine, that looks very localized, which is fine. It's made me really--something I've been trying to do with the language is, I've been noticing plants in my yard that I never knew were there. I've, I've lived in this house for three years now, and there's just so much all around us that I had no clue was there, and that I had to learn both the English names for as well as the Dakotah names for. I dunno, it's just like, it feels really powerful to be able to learn their names and just like greet them every day when I see them. Like, it feels like collapsing time and distance in some ways. Like, I feel, I feel these plant relatives remembering like the ancestors who called them, you know, like, “waz´úśteća” instead of just “wild strawberries?”
And so I just, it feels like they remember. And it feels so good and comforting, and I feel less alone being able to like know them and call them by name. And I feel like I'm reconnecting myself in a lot of ways to, I dunno, the sacred lifeway that my ancestors carried through genocide and left behind for me, even if it's just the name of a plant relative, and using it every day.
I think language plays a big role in my life of being, yeah, a point of ancestral reconnection and healing of, you know, historical legacies of trauma that DO, I think, reside in the body in a lot of ways, but also obviously healing spiritual and emotional traumas that are generational.
I think it helps me make peace still with my own body too. It reminds me, I think, that in being connected to these legacies and teachings, I feel like this body that I'm in is part of that legacy. It's part of a gift that my ancestors carried with them into this future that was very unsure and had no clue what it was gonna look like. And so, I think in thinking of my body in that way, I'm able to make a lot more peace with it too. And so I think that's part of why, for me, just speaking the language—even if, even if I'm not good at it, or I say something wrong, it just feels really healing to have it pass through this body that is connected to that legacy as well.
SB: That's beautiful.
KY: Thanks! (laughs)
CP: Thank you for sharing that. And I've been noticing, as a very small piece of this, like, I'm noticing the work doing on social media with like, you know, drawing and writing names out of things and like sharing with us then, like what different names for different things are, and sharing a bit of your story around that when you're making those posts. I've just really been like, watching on the sidelines and really loving that. So, it's just, it's cool to hear more about that, and the bigger picture in your story. So thank you so much for sharing.
KY: Yeah, I feel like I accidentally turned my Instagram into an art Instagram over the course of like a few days. (laughs)
CP: I love it!
SB: It's the time! If not now, when?
CP: True.
SB: Which is interesting because so much of what you're talking about is communication and being able to connect with yourself, with your ancestors, with others. And I'm curious, because now you're working in publishing. How does that connect to what you're sharing here? Or how does that feel to be in the, in the indie publishing sphere?
KY: Yeah, well, something that I really love, like—I love working at Milkweed Editions, first of all, full disclosure I'm fully in love with it—
CP: —yes!
SB: Wonderful, wonderful local press. I love them so much.
KY: They are a—what's called like, a "mission-driven" press, which means that like, they really adhere to their mission statement, which is to publish transformative literature, which I think is definitely true of most of what they publish. But I think how that fits in kind of with what I'm doing is—at least, personal work-doing--um, is in being an indie publisher, everything in terms of production and relationship is much closer and much smaller. And just like, there's a lot more connection, which provides a lot of space for human connection.
Milkweed is also a publisher who's been really committed to publishing indigenous stories. They currently have a series called Seed Bank, which is kind of a really interesting project, actually. It has the—I guess sort of the premise of it, or the direction of it, is to provide for stories, what seed banks provide for seeds. (Cat sighs) Which is a really cool—
CP:—it's so special—
KY: —It's like hyper-focused on texts that engage human relationships with land and like non-human kin., Which is really beautiful, some really beautiful stories have come out of the Seed Bank series so far. And it's still an ongoing project that I'm really lucky to get to help with.
So primarily, I think all of the texts so far—and I think that's part of the point—is, they have been first translations into English, a lot of them. So they're really sharing, like, these beautiful stories that would otherwise be unreachable to general audiences because of a language barrier, and it turns them into English, which is really exciting. And they just offer so much rich value, I just love them so much! Like, I think my favorite so far is called, uh, When the Whales Leave, and that is available at Milkweed Press or Milkweed Editions, through our bookstore, which has an Instagram and a website and everything. So that's my favorite for sure.
I think also something that's really cool about Milkweed and about this position—which I feel like maybe I haven't said, but I'm doing a fellowship at Milkweed is what I am currently doing. And what's really cool about that is that publishing is a really hard business to break into. It's historically been—and obviously in a lot of ways still is—very like white-dominant, class-exclusionary, so Milkweed wanted to use their resources as a local indie publisher to help lower that entry barrier for folks. So basically this fellowship is just designed to learn the ins and outs of publishing as a whole, which is what's really great about it being indie publisher, because since everything is smaller and more tight knit, there's a lot less strict division between departments. So everyone is able to be very involved in like, the full life cycle of book development, which means that I'm getting the opportunity to learn, you know, not just editing, but also promotion and marketing and art design and cataloging and reading submissions, which is just so much more than you would be able to get with a traditional large publishing house. Which is, I just love it so much. It's really awesome.
SB: Ah, that's so exciting. I am just elated and excited about the Seed Bank project series.
CP: Kachina, you mentioned that piece When the Whales Leave as a recommendation, and I know just like, personally, we've chatted a little bit about different things that you're reading or like audiobook-listening to lately. And I was wondering if you could give the people some of your recommendations.
KY: Okay, yes, I definitely can. I love sharing recommendations so much.
So, you know, obviously, working for Milkweed, I'd be remiss if I didn't pull up another Milkweed book, but as it so happens when I purchased this book years ago, I did not know it was a Milkweed book, and it has become one of my favorite books in the whole world.
So it was just like such a delight to realize it was a Milkweed book--
CP: —oh, that's so cool!—
KY: —yeah! It is called Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer. Um, if you haven't read it, you have to do yourself the favor of reading it for sure. Robin, she's a PhD botanist, and I believe she's a member of Pottawatomie nation, and she reflects on kind of the intersections of being in the worlds of science, as well as Indigenous traditional ecological knowledge, or TEK, and how those can be really complimentary to each other. And it's just a really good book, and I think the best way to describe it probably would be—this might be a blurb on the cover and that's why it's coming to my head—but, it's a love letter to the world around us. It really truly is. And it's just really heartening and rooting, just like a big ol' cup of healing. So it's, it's definitely really good for this time, I think, of quarantine and being, feeling separate from each other, but realizing that we have this whole world around us that can keep us company, too.
Also, I know you mentioned audiobooks, Cat. (Cat: Mhmm!) I was never really into audiobooks, but then you just really hit me with the audiobook game. And I was like, "I could listen to audiobooks, too!"
CP: (laughs) Yeees!
KY: So I'm currently listening to The Vanishing Half by Brit Bennett, which I haven't finished yet, but so far is really fantastic and covers kind of complicated relationships of a family. It centers around these two twin sisters and how their world has been influenced through the lens of race, both for themselves, but also it's one of those really cool books that kind of follows a family legacy as well. So you also get a glimpse into how that impacts the future generations of their family. It's very gripping, highly recommend reading or listening, cause actually the narrator of the audiobook, I like quite a lot too.
CP: Love that audiobook rec.
KY: Yeah!
SB: And a good narrator rec, too, because that can make or break it.
CP: Oh, it REALLY can, it really can.
KY: Yeah, I have a few more, if you want more! (laughs)
CP: Give it. Yes!
SB: Yes! Lay it on us.
KY: Okay. So I'm also currently reading On Earth, We're Briefly Gorgeous by Ocean Vuong and it's honestly unlike anything I've ever read I think? It's nonfiction, but the format is super interesting. It's the author writing to his mother about their lives. It's really intimate and powerful, so it's definitely like a very emotionally-heavy read, so make sure you have the capacity for that before reading, for sure. But if you do, I more than recommend it. it's really beautiful. It's poetic even though it's prose. It's really beautiful.
And also, influenced by Cat in this last year. So I've been, I've been reading a lot more romance, just for fun.
CP: Yeeeeeessssss!
KY: Which has been so nice and delightful. And not only that, but I think I found myself not only loving romance, but defending it too. 'Cause I think there's kind of a negative perception around it as like, "It's trash fiction." And okay, that's not to say that there's not bad romance out there, but I think that romance writing is really empowering and it can be really empowering. And I definitely found myself in a few arguments with people about not looking down their noses at romance as a genre.
CP: Well, you fight the good fight, Kachina! (Kachina laughs) That's great!
That said, my favorite romance reads so far this summer have been Beach Read by Emily Henry and Well Met by Jen DeLuca. Um, Beach Read is so fun. It's an enemies-to-lovers trope, kind of. It's a contemporary romance, touches on loneliness and young adulthood. Um, and it also handles really well that dichotomy that I spoke about, of serious versus like fun writing. Cause both main characters are writers in very different genres and they're really competitive and struggling with their own identities as writers. So it's fun and steamy and compelling all in one.
CP: You mentioned this to me, like, a little while ago and I just today started listening to that book.
KY: (gasps) Oh yay, I'm so excited for you! I wish I could reread it for the first time again, honestly.
CP: That's how I feel about some of my favorite contemporary romance. If I could just go back to the day when I didn't realize how great this was yet and listen to it again? Oh my goodness.
KY: Honestly. Another favorite of mine is Well Met by Jen DeLuca, which I love so much. It's so quirky because it is a contemporary romance, but the whole plot line is centered around this small town Renaissance festival that's going on. So even though, like, it is a contemporary romance, you do still get that sort of time period shift a little bit when they're in character during this festival. It's another enemies-to-lovers type trope, um, but it's really beautiful detail. And I feel like, I don't know. It's like you're getting a glimpse into the hidden world of Renaissance faires that's very fun. I have no clue if it's accurate in any way or shape or form, but it feels so fun and it really pulls you in.
CP: Those are all such a good recommendations. (Kachina laughs)
SB: So good. I like, just got my LibroFM credit for the month, and so now I'm like, all right, one of these is gonna be the winner. There's no doubt.
Kachina, thank you so much for telling us your story as—
CP+SB: —A matter of fat!
CP: Ooo, that was such a great conversation!
SB: Not going to lie, I felt a little rusty going into our first interview for the season, but I could’ve talked to Kachina for hours! So many great book recommendations! Oh, you mentioned her Instagram, so tell the people more about what you’ve been seeing and how they can find it!
CP: Ooo, yeah! Ok, so Kachina has been creating art with Dakota words and then sharing them on her Instagram with captions and stories about how those words relate to her life and our current circumstances. She actually also created a beautiful image that said “Black Lives Matter” in Dakota and, through a T-shirt fundraising platform, sold the shirt and raised over $11,000 to help rebuild Migizi, a Native American non-profit org based in Minneapolis supporting Native youth. We will of course link Kachina’s Instagram in the show notes so you can check ‘em out!
SB: Kachina mentioned that nuanced feeling of going back to a time before starting a really good book and I kinda feel that way about this conversation. It was so lovely.
CP: Ooo, I love that! Yes, so so lovely. And now, it’s time for—
CP+SB: —Dirt + Discourse!
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CP: It’s time for the Dirt and Discourse! This is where we dive into the excitement and discomfort around relevant pop and cultural happenings.
SB: Okay, we’ll we’re—mmm, lemme check my watch—approximately 6 months into a global pandemic which has not been very fun, if you’ve been paying attention.
CP: And wouldn’t you know it, even now—or maybe like, ESPECIALLY now—folks’ commitment to diet culture is stronger than ever.
SB: Yeah, it feels like the body shaming, weight-focused posts we see every January are just like, lingering so long into 2020.
CP: You’ve seen them—the “quarantine 15”, complaints about gaining weight during stay at home orders, the incessant food moralizing. It’s really been out in full force and is. not. cute.
SB: Not cute at all! Of course these perspectives are misguided and bad for us. I mean, you know this. We know this. But,we wanna dive into it a bit more.
CP: Making jokes about gaining weight, sharing before and after pictures, or publicly complaining about bodies changing is bad for everyone! So yes of course, it’s bad for fat people. Yes of course, it’s bad for folks experiencing or recovering from eating disorders. And also, it’s bad for literally everyone, regardless of body size and/or disordered eating history.
SB: This focus on weight during the pandemic or the “quarantine 15” memes is all fatphobic. It’s harmful because the assumption is that there’s something inherently wrong about living in a larger body. Playing into stereotypes about how fat people are lazy, undesirable, undisciplined, or not intelligent.
CP: It’s harmful because they perpetuate the idea that weight and health are one-in-the-same, which they’re not. And they don’t acknowledge the role other components of health, like mental health for instance, play in our overall health and well being.
SB: What lots of folks don’t realize is that when they complain about gaining weight or poke fun at fat people, there are lots of us whose bodies look just like the ones they’re disparaging. We live in these bodies all the time, and it’s tough when we have to encounter subtle, or even blatant, aggressions from those who are close to us.
CP: All of this comes from our society’s strong, yet misguided, investment in diet culture. Diet and weight loss culture glorifies thinness and equates it to health and moral virtue.
SB: Diet culture would have us believe that thinness is the standard that we should all be striving for. It pathologizes fat bodies, meaning it tells us that larger bodies are, by default, a medical problem. It encourages restriction and rules around food, often moralizing or labeling foods as good or bad, and then labeling people who eat them as good or bad, accordingly. And, it’s really concerned with the idea of exercise as a trade-off for eating or being used only to prevent being or becoming fat.
CP: Dieting and obsessing about our bodies, it makes us feel like garbage, and it can take our attention away from more worthwhile and sustainable pursuits. There are so many things for us to be concerned about right now, it’s heartbreaking to think that our body size changing is even on that list.
SB: We want everyone to know that you are valuable and worthy no matter your size, no matter how your body changes, or should you need to get a different pair of pants, or see a stretch mark that wasn’t there before. Your body is trying to get you through this stressful and scary time.
CP: Like Kachina expressed so beautifully in her interview, it’s ok to acknowledge being in a new or different body and changing the way you think about it.
SB: Being kind to yourself is so important right now, and embracing a more body neutral or positive perspective can be healing and helpful.
CP: And, there you have it! Today’s Dirt & Discourse. So in conclusion: riots not diets. And, be kind to yourself and your body during this truly unprecedented time.
SB: Not an unprecedented time! Oh my gosh. Ok, riots not diets now more appropriate than ever before.
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CP: Wow, first full episode of the season! Thanks so much for listening!
SB: Yeah, thank you! As we’ve discussed at length, lots of things are terrible and yet we’re so glad to share Matter of Fat with you. Please subscribe, rate, and review our podcast wherever you catch Matter of Fat!
CP: And, did you hear? We have a new website—
SB: —(distant carnival announcer voice) I think we got a BINGO!!! (Cat laughs)
CP: Visit www.matteroffatpod.com for show notes and transcripts, for info about Matter of Fat, to get on our newsletter list, access older episodes, and more!
SB: We’ll be back in two weeks for another episode of—
CP+SB: —Matter of Fat!
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