S4E1 - The Fat Dish - Transcript

Released on April 14th, 2021. For complete episode info, visit this page!

Saraya Boghani: Hi, this is Saraya. Before we get into this episode and the start of our fourth season, Cat and I needed to share an important message. We needed to take a moment to share sadness, outrage, and solidarity with our community in the wake of another Black man murdered by police in the Twin Cities area. 

On Sunday, Daunte Wright was shot and killed by police during a traffic stop in Brooklyn center, a suburb right next to Minneapolis. It's been reported that the officer intended to tase Wright, but fatally shot him instead. 

You know our stance on human dignity. Thus, we are proponents of police abolition. Tragically and senselessly, time and time again, it's made clear that our current model of policing can not be reformed. It could feel like a hard pivot to launch into our first episode of Season Four, during a continuing tragedy. That being said, this violence, this tragedy is the reality of living in Minnesota, of living in the Midwest, the United States, and this world, if we do not speak on it, we are not being truthful.

So much of Matter of Fat is asking for people to share their truth. And so we, in service to this mission and you, must do that too. Our hearts go out to Daunte Wright’s family and community. We're also thinking of everyone in our community who doesn't feel safe or protected by police. It's not fair and it's not okay.

Black Lives Matter.

[THEME MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]

Cat Polivoda: Welcome to Matter of Fat, a body positive podcast with Midwest sensibilities. Hi, I'm Cat Polivoda, a local fat feminist and shop owner. And I'm joined by my co-host and producer Saraya Boghani. 

SB: Hi, I'm Saraya. I'm a fat multiracial Minneapolitan millennial. 

CP: On Matter of Fat, we're here to talk about the cultural politics of fat liberation with a Midwest perspective.

SB: And you're listening to Matter of Fat’s Fat Dish.

CP: It’s new! We gotta tell the people what it's all about, Saraya!

SB: Yes, yes, yes. Everyone: if you are a longtime listener, you may know our Fat Dish as a segment that we used to do as part of our episodes, and you know what? Fat Dish has grown up, and it's a chattier moment between us to dish about whatever the heck we've got on our minds

CP: And I mean, I don't know. What does that mean? Like, it's sort of more of what we always talk about dishing about our lives, about love and fat stuff and pod stuff and political stuff and audiobooks and personal things, you know, all of it's fair game. (Both laugh)

SB: I love that audiobooks was like interspersed with those big, deep thoughts, but it's truly come up enough that yes, it should. If this was a Wordle, audiobooks would be huge in that word cloud.

CP: Can we just mark this moment that you brought up Wordles, a concept of visual representation of themes that you don't actually like very much, Saraya? I think you threw that in there for me and I love it.  

SB: And the pandemic has changed me. What can I say? I’m a different person.

CP: She’s a changed woman.

SB: Oh man. And maybe you're wondering, like, why are they doing this? Well, like we have heard y'all like from surveys and quick, check-ins in our conversations during podlucks. We've heard that—surprising to me and apparently no one else—uh, you enjoy our opinions and our conversations. 

CP: Yeah. I mean, we have always, we enjoy catching up with one another and it's nice to know that you all are excited to hear that as well. And as we're growing and kind of, um, thinking about—as we were thinking about kind of changes we wanted to make for Season Four, like different, you know, areas of growth, we thought it would be fun to give a little more space to these Fat Dishes, to dishing about all this stuff. And then that might allow us to make sure our interview episodes don't get too long, um, and that we're able to kind of give space to all of the awesome guests that we have on our podcast as well. 

SB: Yeah. And also just like, chilling out. I think something that has been part of this project—which is a passion project for us and, uh, which we, obviously love to do, it’s Season Four—is figuring out a way to make it more sustainable.

And so having this opportunity to just chat—Fat Dish. It's all good. We're having fun—is going to be a way to do that and still provide some good content for y'all. 

CP: I think we should tell the people like, just to pull back the curtain a little bit, part of what Saraya is getting at—this idea of like, making it a little more chill and easy—we, while we have like some bullet points, we don't have a script that's similar to what we've done in seasons past. Like, we're really just happy to have the space to literally chat a little bit more. Um, cause we know many folks are into chattier episodes and we're excited to give that more of a try. 

SB: So welcome! It's the first episode!

CP: We’re here! 

SB: We’re on this—lemme say it Cat—on this journey, Cat. We're on this journey together. Something that she hates. (Both laugh)

CP: It sort of applies though, I think that's totally fine language. Um, yeah. And I think this is probably a good segue into what we'll get into in this episode.

SB: Yeah. So what's gonna be happening in this episode? Well, I mean, we kind of gave you broad strokes of what it's going to look like, but we're gonna give you updates about the podcast. You know, what have we been doing to develop it, some fun things to look forward for in Season Four, we're going to certainly dive into our own personal dish.

CP: Oh, yeah!

SB: What’s been going on with us lately, big things that are coming up, revelations. Um, and then fat thoughts, right? 

CP: Um, yeah! We have a couple, um, fat, a couple hot takes, some—

SB: A couple hot takes!

CP: Some, yeah, some fat, some rad, fat takes that we are excited to share with you. 

SB: And then we always love to do media recommendations, whether we plan to do it or not, so we'll have a little media moment. I mean, that's really, that's the bulk of it. So welcome to this Fat Dish journey. Let's start, let's start with a Matter of Fat Dish

CP: Oh yeah. We have to—I mean, like, it's been so long, I guess it feels like a long time, but it's been months since you've heard our last episode, our BANGER of a two-hour episode (Both laugh) that rounded out our—

SB: Did you really call our two-hour episode banger, is that, is that appropriate?

CP: I just did!

SB: Okay, so it's spoken. It is true. It was a great episode, but it's been a minute. 

CP: It really has. Okay. So we have to, like, we have to share everything we've been up to. 

Um, I guess maybe in no particular order we could talk—well, we, so we started working on Season Four in January. Um, there was a little moment where Saraya and I actually saw each other in real life a couple times, which was such an absolute treat because as you know, we've been like really, very COVID cautious, and so being like planful about seeing each other. Um, you might remember that we had a little New Year's Eve-eve Instagram live, um, which was very fun. And then we had later in January, um, a little retreat that we kind of do every year to get our thoughts together around the season to come. 

SB: Mhmm. And it was really—it's interesting to plan from a place of, uh, unknown? Which, which by that, I mean, like, we were still very much in the pandemic and not sure where anything was going to go, if you think back to January.

CP: Yeah.

SB: And so this project has just been a really fun way to reframe, like, what are we doing already? What do we love? And how can we just maximize that? 

And I think one way we've done that is Podlucks. So that's been something that we launched last season, because we love you! We love community. We love talking with you all about things, and so it's been really wonderful to be able to host a conversation every month about a different podcast that talks about fat things and just get some different perspectives.I really like, um, shaking up my worldview, and so that's been really helpful. 

CP: Yeah! Podlucks have been an absolute delight. We have already started with those, this season. Many of you have been to them. Um, and, uh, note that our next one is coming up on Thursday, May 6th. And so, um, with our podlucks there—it's like very chill. We have a podcast episode. You can, you can listen to in preparation or not listen to in preparation. Um, it's all virtual of course, over Zoom. Um, and on our website—and then also I make like a Facebook, um, event as well—so you can find us in one of those places, find that Zoom link and RSVP, and then just join us. It's very, very chill and also very fun. 

SB: Mhmm. And you don't have to be fat to join. It will be predominantly about fat things and fat worldviews. So like, just be aware of that, but it's been a dream, one might say.

CP: It’s been so fun. 

SB: And I'm glad you brought up Facebook because we all know how much I love Facebook— 

CP: —You’re glad I brought up Facebook?! (Both laugh) 

SB: I am the poster child for Facebook usage. No, no, no, no, that's someone's aunt, that's not me, but, um, our Friends and Fans Facebook page is popping.

CP: It really is! Due in large part to Erin, one of our assistants this season. 

SB: It's so good. Even I've been on there because she's been doing such a good job of jumping in there, sharing things, and I am just like, so excited by the posts that people are sharing in there like personal stories, thoughts, opinions. Um, it's, it's a good little community.

CP: Yeah, it's been more fun that there's been more chatter in there, cause it's really—I mean, I really enjoy being able to chat with, you know, friends and fans of the pod in there. Uh, if you are looking to—if you're not part of this group yet, but would like to be, um, just search for, it's connected to our page on Facebook and this called, um, Matter of Fat, or maybe it's just MoF Friends and Fans Facebook. Oh gosh. I'm like pubbing the name without knowing the name.

SB: You'll find it. It’s there. Facebook is one of many ways to engage. 

CP: One of very many.

SB: We'll link it in the show notes too. 

CP: And we’ll also link from our website too, if that's helpful. So that's a surefire way to find it. Yeah. 

SB: I'm so glad though, that you brought up Erin because our assistants are amazing. 

CP: Yes!

SB: Um, we've got Lindsay as well, who actually right now is listening to this recording. 

CP: That’s a new thing too, yeah!

SB: We are very excited to have Lindsay, um, help with the edit process. She is the queen of transcripts and, um, so this season, she gets to kind of shift her attention to helping us with the editing and, well in this case, recording process. So we're thrilled to have her, and she's also such a gem. She is helping to onboard and get our new assistant Sophie up to date with running transcripts for us. So it's very exciting.

CP: Yeah! Erin, Lindsay, Sophie, we're just so happy that they're with us this season. And really like, I mean, we—as Saraya mentioned, we really like, have been thinking about ways to finesse what we're already doing. Like we, we had a lot of growth last season in terms of all of the stuff that we've kind of added to what Matter of Fat is all about. And as we continue with that, this season is like only possible because of the assistance we're getting from our assistants. And so just all the shout outs and love to the three of them, they're just really, really great.

SB: Also appreciative of the people who did respond to our outreach for another assistant this season, some very, very hard choices. Y'all are talented and we appreciate you so much. 

CP: I'm so glad you mentioned that, Saraya. It was a very tough decision. Um, yeah, it was just, we just, we, we, we love everyone. Um, and it's just so, um, it's like humbling and such an honor that like folks are excited to be working with us. So it's just very, very special. 

SB: Yeah. Um, what else? 

CP: What else? We took some pictures! Finally more content for the ‘gram.

SB: Got to feed that beast. 

CP: So we actually, we really did it. We took several pictures and like several outfits, um, and Paxyshia, who works with me at Cake was kind enough to take some photos for us. So they really turned out great, and you've probably already seen some of them on our social media. 

SB: I didn't know how to put an outfit together. I haven't had to put an outfit together in a year. And so that's, that's on me learning how to clothe myself. Um, but it was fun. They are cute. 

CP: They turned out really great, our outfits kind of like coordinate, um, which is something that I always love, like the idea of not matching, but coordinating, uh, such a fav.

SB: Okay. What do the people want to know about? What else do we want to talk about ?

CP: We could share that we've already—so, um, we mentioned, we started kind of working already in January and similar to our previous season, we've been doing interviews before the season starts. So we already have had several amazing interviews that we just cannot wait to share.

SB: They're very good, y'all. Like there have been moments where I'm listening. I'm like, oh, this is, this is good. This is why I'm here on this earth to like, listen to people and hear their stories and resonate. Like not in-person, which I think is really interesting, and obviously you're not listening to this in person, so I, I honestly think that the recording virtually has almost elevated the listening experience because everybody's just, doing this the same way. Like, we're just hearing it through our headphones much like you are probably right now. Um, but that's a little ramble. We just went through a little Saraya ramble patch. But yes, we’ve excited for the interviews.

CP: I love it! Uh, but I think that's a really lovely way to describe things. And I mean, at the end of the day, we want folks who are like consuming and listening to Matter of Fat to be just like that meme of the billboard, right? You know what I'm talking about? With the kid? (Both laugh).

SB: So it's like a child, uh, eating ice cream, sitting next to like an ice cream, uh, ad, where there's three other children eating ice cream and they're all sitting there laughing together. Is that what you're describing?

CP: That’s precisely what I am describing. 

SB: Yes. Me and my podcast friends. 

CP: That's what we hope these experience is like for you. Cause I think for both of us, that's what it's kind of what we're getting from this as well. But also, I don't know about you Saraya, but for me, like that's the feeling I want to get from all of the podcasts I listened to. So I hope that's what we're bringing as well. 

SB: You're also bringing it to everybody's inboxes, the email inboxes. There's a newsletter.

CP: What a segue and a compliment. 

SB: That's what I'm here for, baby.

CP: Saraya is still letting us do a newsletter. No, I shouldn't say it like that (Saraya laughs). Um, uh, we are, we had thought about maybe pausing the newsletter, but we are continuing, and so that's, um, something that Erin and I work on. Um, and so, yeah, just excited to still, I know it's silly, like, to pop into a few people's inboxes once a month or so, but it's really fun to be able to connect with folks that way as well. So watch out for that newsletter. And if you're not on our list, you can get on our list on our website! 

SB: Honestly, I am not a proponent of newsletters in a lot of ways, but like what's the harm in getting something fun and cute? That's not selling anything to you. I do think there's something to be said for that. And I am kind of biased because, we have a playlist that is related to a recent newsletter. That is killer. I love it. I am obsessed with this playlist and I hope you will be too. 

CP: What a good little, if you’re not—

SB: —It’s a teaser—

CP: If you want to get this playlist, get on the list. And then I think the final thing we need to share Saraya in terms of like, Matter of Fat developments is Fat Cash. 

SB: Get that fat cash, yo! Yes, fat cash, tell the people.

CP: So you all have asked us for a while about ways that you might be able to share a little, like, monetary love with Matter of Fat, whether it be a tip jar or a Patreon or something like that. So we have decided to go more of like the classic, “tip jar”—in like, air quotes—route. Um, we're calling that Fat Cash. If you got cash to share, we would love some of it, if that's something you want to give to the pod. And so now on our website, you can connect with our Venmo, um, and share, uh, essentially a tip with us there if you are enjoying what you are listening to. 

SB: Yeah. I mean, we don't really, we don't make money with it—

CP: —No—

SB: And that's not like the goal, but it would be nice along the way, but we do like that we're able to offer like a, a very small stipend to our assistants. Um, you know, just paying for like hosting and technology things. So anything that you care to share, we would just, be so grateful for, and just know that it's going towards the actual production and support of this project. 

CP: Yeah, it really is. It's not as if we are extravagant with what we're doing, but like, podcasts costs a little bit of money, you know?

SB: A little chunk of change.

CP: Yeah they do! And that's just like, um, money that Saraya and I have, you know, contributed previously and also it would be awesome if that's something that could be, um, that could be shared a little bit. So no pressure obligation ever at all, and also if that's something that you, if you want to share a little Fat Cash with us, we would gladly accept.

SB: The name is good. Like, even if you don't have the wherewithal to share so many, just acknowledged the name is like, chef's kiss, right? 

CP: It's fun to like, have as many, like, how many things can we call fat? (Both laugh) How many times can we like rebrand or like rename things that involve fatness? I am here for all of it. 

SB: I kind of love that. It already has a positive association with it too. If you got fat cash, you got like a lot of it. So, into it. 

Okay. But that's enough. We are talking a lot about behind the scenes things and like maybe people are interested. Maybe they're not, I think we should just hear from you Cat and myself, like what is going on with us personally, 

CP: A lil’ personal dish! Okay. Um, I guess I can start out just like it's feels really difficult impossible to catch you all up on the intricacies and ebbs and flows of my like mood and general disposition related to having a business in a pandemic from, you know, last time we talked till now. 

So suffice to say lots of ups and downs, um, and also, I'm feeling quite good right now. Um, I fortunately was able to get, um, a second round PPP funding, but more importantly, or more like wonderfully was given a grant from this from the county. Hennepin County had—I have, you know, I was like applying to all the things, um, for business grants and stuff, and quite out of the blue, I heard back from one, um, and got a really sizable grant from Hennepin County, but like the monies were, you know, state allocated money of Federal CARES act funds. 

So, I mean, you probably know I've been talking on and on about how the government needs to do a better job of taking care of small businesses. And I will be a broken record like that forever. And also, they did! For me, in this moment, um, and it's made my work life a lot easier this spring. So that's something I'm really celebrating. 

SB: That's wonderful. Yeah. I mean, to pack it all into 30 seconds is quite a bit because I'm sure it was just like a roller coaster of an experience figuring that out.

CP: Yep, yeah! It’s just been a lot, but I won't, I won't, I don't need to give you all the details, but yeah, that's 30 seconds worth of how I'm feeling. 

But also what's fun is that like, that all kind of timed out really well, because at the beginning of kind of beginning, middle of March, I started to take a little bit of a step back in terms of doing appointments at the shop, we kind of mixed up our schedule a little bit at the shop, because I'm in my best friend's baby bubble! 

My best friends, Karen and Margo are having a baby, and I did like the hardcore lockdown two weeks. Quarantine, you know, two tests gotta be safe situation. Um, and now I'm in their bubble. And as we record this, the, their baby has not yet arrived, but it's possible that when you are listening to it, that she'll be here already—I don't know, but it's just been so fun to be part, to like, be, you know, around humans, like in real life, especially my best friends, um, and to be part of this really exciting adventure that they're on. Um, and to be, you know, sharing all the love and support I can, especially when, um, when baby arrives. 

SB: Oh, yeah. Oh, that's so precious.

CP: How about you Saraya? Tell me what's going on with you. 

SB: Yeah, I mean, I kind of put this on you, that you were going through a rollercoaster of emotions, uh, regarding PPP. Is that what it’s called? Uh, for some reason, I think PPE.

CP: Oh that’s personal protective equipment, and PPP is the Paycheck Protection Program. So, similar. 

SB: Acronyms will be the end of me. Like that's all I have to say. In any case, the ebbs and flows of, uh, everything is true. And I think, in the winter, it got particularly hard, just being even more removed from people. And I like sustained a very small injury on the ice. Um, I had the hubris of walking confidently over some snow.

CP: Bad idea!

SB: Oh, oh how I fell. But that was also the weekend we did our retreat, and so powered through it, but it just was like, really, like dark. And so I then rose like a phoenix from the ashes. No, I'm just kidding. But like, it got to a point where I was like, okay, lady, you've been saying that you need to talk to someone and like maybe pursue therapy for a decade.

Like, what if right now. Why not now? Why not now? And so I have become the epitome of like a 30 year old woman cliche of like, I have a therapist, so that's my personality, now. 

CP: You just are discovering a lot of things and thinking through a lot of stuff! 

SB: I love it. I love it. I think it's great. Um, I think it's also not so much that the therapist but just like having a mindset that's open to being curious about yourself and others and like trying things out. 

I, I love it too, because I have been doing this Zoom hangout with, um, some core friends from college that like, we weren't connecting as much prior to the pandemic, but somehow, almost every Thursday, since this all went down, we will do a Zoom hang. And the last one was truly just as saying like, “Oh yeah, my therapist said this. Oh yeah, my therapist. Oh, do you know what an Enneagram is?”

CP: Oh that is just a classic, millennial hang (Cat laughs)

SB: It's really, it's really just me um, uh, digi-volving, into the next level of my life? It's ridiculous. But I'm enjoying it a lot. And so I think that coupled with just staying booked and busy somehow? Like I know constantly, I'm like, I don't want anything to do in life. I just want to be able to bake things, make coffee and talk with my family and friends. 

And yet here I am just, overextending a lot, but, um, one of the things that I have really enjoyed, uh, please I'm inviting you into my cult. It's not my cult. It's, um—whose cult is it—it's Bill Burnett and Dave Evans cult, but it's basically, there's this book called Designing Your Life and it's based off of a course that was on design thinking. So like problem solving and considering ways to figure out how to live a coherent life, and I've been co-facilitating, um, just a conversation around the book.

And it's been really, really fun to just be like, okay, um, where do I want to be in five years? And if like I get fired tomorrow, and I can't like rely on what I current trajectory is, what will those next five years look like? And then if I was independently wealthy, what will those next five years look like? Um, and this kind of activity beforehand would have very much scared me, and now it's just like kind of fun to be thinking and escaping from our current reality.

CP: I love that so much for you, and like, you're now facilitating those experiences for other people at work, right? Oh, they're just so lucky to have you kind of leading them through that. 

SB: That's so nice, but truly every time I talk about this, I'm like, would you like to join? It feels like I'm asking people to join a cult, because it's like, let me give you some time tools to change your life.

CP: I actually bought the book on your recommendation and I haven't read it yet. It was funny, like, you recommended that to me, and then this podcasting book to me. And so in a row, I bought two books by white men and I was like, haven't given them my money for literature in a while (Both laugh)

SB: Your credit card declined, and was like, are you sure?

CP: But actually one of the, I, we should share that, um, the book, the podcast book from the people who do My Brother, My Brother and Me, right? Is that, am I remembering that right? 

SB: Yes. You're doing a great job, sweetie!

CP: We both listened to that. Of course we listened to the audiobook, which is great. Cause these guys who wrote it have a podcast, of course, it's like a really compelling listen.

SB: They have like, a million podcasts. It's too many. It's untenable. But anyways—

CP: You actually listen to their podcasts, I actually had never listened to any of them before, but I did enjoy the book and one, my like biggest takeaway—you know where I'm going with this—my biggest takeaway was there's a section about like capturing good audio.

And, um, I, I, at the beginning of it, they're like, if you have a closet that you can record in, stop reading and go record there. And I was like, “Oh, I actually have a really lovely sizable closet that could, I could be recording in.” And so forevermore, I am recording in the closet. So while Saraya and I are speaking right now in the closet, I did some podcasts for like, I was kind of a guest on some podcasts earlier, or like last month from my closet. This is just where I live now. 

SB: She's upgraded folks. She is no longer under a sheet, a flannel sheet—

CP: —Like you are!—

SB: She is now in a closet. No, not a flannel. My—I am not of the flannel variety. I am susceptible to Brooklinen though. That's the sheet I'm working with right now. So there's that.

CP: I’m just a flannel lover. And I'll tell you, it's a little warm in the closet, but it's not as like, it's not as much as being under the, the sheet. So I'm, I'm enjoying this upgrade. It's me and my Chromebook in the closet. 

SB: Just a gal and her Chromebook. I think, okay. So we're talking about these books by, uh, white men that have been intriguing for us, but I think you should talk about your own writing process! 

CP: Oh, you are so kind to ask about this! 

So I did this memoir writing workshop through this organization called My Founder Story. Um, and actually it just ended recently. It was an eight week series, it kind of felt like a class, right? So like for a couple hours, every Thursday we'd come together, and we kind of learned how to put together a business memoir, um, which is a little bit different than a regular memoir, because the focus is like your business journey and kind of things that have happened in your life that helped make you who you are, but especially pertaining to the business that you opened and like how, how the business opened, where you're at now, where you're going, those kinds of things. Um, yeah, and it was just really cool. I've been wanting to write more for the longest time. Um, and it's something I think a lot about but don't really do, so it was nice to have the structure of this workshop to really get into it.

Um, and it's done now and I don't have like a, a perfect draft put together yet, but I do have just a lot of, I have a great outline and a lot of really compelling pieces that I've written that it’s just like, quite exciting for me. So, um, while the workshop is done, the process is not done, I do think this is something that I'm interested in publishing. It's just sort of a question of how and when and what that will look like. But yeah, I've just been really, it's been a really cool experience last couple of months. 

SB: I love that. I can't wait to read it and see all the secrets that come out. 

CP: Thank you. Well, actually, you know, I, my favorite, well, my, my. The biggest thing for me is like, I want to write a book that I would like to read, you know? So I guess part of that is like, I always think about it with the audio book in mind. Um, but more so I think about like, I really enjoy memoirs that are just chatty and fun and also kind of juicy. So when I'm writing stuff, I'm thinking like, how could this be a little chattier? How could this be a little juicer and how can I like kind of sprinkle wisdom in, but not have it be too, too stuffy, you know?

SB: Trying to trying to be a little scandalous. Ooo exciting and dangerous!

CP: I would love, love, love to be considered even an ounce of scandalous. Like, that would just be very fun for me. 

SB: Well, maybe, okay, maybe that's in the new year for you because your birthday is coming up soon. Maybe that's the theme: “Scandal”. 

CP: Yeah, I do have a birthday coming up, “Scandal”? I mean, I wish. It's another pandemic birthday, so not going to be anything too exciting happening, but I will say like, I don't know! I'm now entering into my mid-thirties, um, cause I'll be 34 and that feels a little, I don't know, not scandalous, but a little like, huh, I'm going to be, I don't know, for the first time in a long time I'm sort of feeling getting older in a different way. So that's something I'm thinking about, but you know, Saraya you also have had a birthday since our season ended. 

SB: Oh yeah. Oh god. Yeah, that happened!

CP: That happened kind of a while ago, I guess. But yeah.

SB: It was in January. Yeah. It was actually really lovely. I, um, that group that I talked about earlier, who's like the Zoom hang crew. Um, we've been doing just like a, a themed birthday moment and it was really lovely to be able to just chat and be in community with people and still be far from each other. And then I got to spend a little bit of time with my fam, which was nice at that time. Can I just say like, family members getting the vaccine? That's the gift. That's the gift that I wanted and needed.

CP: Really and truly, yes.

SB: I didn't even realize like how anxious I was about it until my parents got the vaccine and I'm like, oh, thank god. This pandemic has certainly interjected a facet of familial relationships that I don't think anybody was prepared for. So, um, but it's not bad. In fact, I got to spend some time with them last weekend and it was really fun. Oh, we did a little, meditation moment -

CP: With your fam?

SB: That was very cute. 

CP: I love that for you!

SB: Yeah. So like part of this designing your life thing is like, what do you want to do in the world? And so I was asking my parents this and my dad was like, “I, every day is a blank canvas.” And I was like, that's kind of a BS answer, but also where did you get that? So he was like, “Oh, I've been meditating pretty regularly, like every day.” And he does the Chopra app. Um, and so we did it and that was really lovely and really fun, um, to do as a family. And it's kind of interesting. 

Yeah. Never anticipated it, but yeah, another Saraya ramble, but that's where I'm at, like meditating with your family if you have the chance.

CP: I do not meditate with my family, but I bet that it would benefit us all if we did.

SB: If we all just sat quietly in a room together, it might help.

CP: Yeah. Well, this is so fun! I think like there's, it's fun to dish a little bit between us and just like to hear what's been going on. Um, but I think maybe now we should get into some, some, some truly fat content—I guess, although, we're fat, so isn't anything we do fat content?

SB: Anything we say is ultimately fat, but granted, this is an audio medium. So you don't—if you didn't know already, like, let it be clear. Um, but let's do some fat thoughts. Let's share some, some fat hot takes of the world.

CP: Some fat hot takes. Saraya I know you have a good hot take to get us started with. 

SB: I don't even know if it's that good or that hot, but like, um, it's recent.

CP: I think it’s good and hot!

SB: Well, thank you. Well, I wish we could do it where like back in the day with American Idol, you could like, text to vote whether you thought, like, if you wanted to vote for Sanjaya, somebody else, but like, I wish you could do that for this right now. I mean, DM us. If you think it's a fun, hot take, I guess. Uh, I'm not even okay. I'm going to see how far I can go without saying this person's name, because I do not want to give her the attention necessarily 

CP: Well you’ll have to say it at least once, but yeah, let's make that a challenge you.

SB: So this person is really well known for, uh, her books and she's, her books have been sold at Target, she’s a white woman, she has a lot of directives and tells a lot of people about her life story and how she became so successful. And honestly, I have swerved so hard on her my whole life. Like every time. Yeah. I've been at Target and I see, well, I’ll name the title here: There's like, one of her books is called Girl Wash Your Face.

And I'm like, who are you? Why are you telling me to wash my face, ma'am? And she's just like, laughing on the cover and this is like a snap judgment, so maybe it was bad of me at the time, but I feel really validated in my choice because lately there was a kerfuffle where she went on Instagram and was talking about having, like, her cleaning woman come over and how she got some feedback that she's like very incredibly privileged and unrelatable.

And then she came back—I mean, I would imagine, not at the behest of her publicity team or anybody on her team, you would hope—but, um, she came back saying that she's like, worked really hard for her wealth and that she's not trying to be relatable. And in that post, which has since been taken down, hashtagged women like Oprah, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, Amelia Earhart, Frida Kahlo and, oh, I got to Harriet Tubman as like—I guess, similar women to her because they are unrelatable and they weren't trying to be relatable and do big things. But I do not think this woman is on par with any of those other women. 

And I, again, I just want to say that I feel very validated and reading some of the things that have come up because a lot of, I also I'll link this out, but I, I read a piece by somebody who said, “Yeah, I like read this book and I enjoyed it. Um, and then I realized that it was actually quite harmful and almost like re-triggered some disordered eating for me,” because there's a lot of fatphobia, there's a lot of sizeism-enablism in her books as well.

And I was like, yup, yup. Like that, all smacked of that. And I'm really glad that I didn't put money or time towards that type of person. So. I don't know, that's, that's my hot take. It's like, if you see somebody who is evangelizing, telling you how you're supposed to live your life, this is the way to do it, chances are that there's gonna be some harmful stuff in that. ‘Cause I don't think there is one way to live your life. 

CP: Yeah. Well, and so when you set this up, like, you're, you like first started out saying like “This person's known for—” And I was like, for her white feminism.

SB: That’s a good point! That should’ve been a clue.

CP: We should tell the people, this person is Rachel Hollis and she's, you know, people have really, um, rightfully critiqued her, uh, at long last, but especially like the last couple weeks here, there's been a lot to be said about her, especially, um, due to this weird video, where she's like defending herself in a weird way, and then also like, you know, telling us that these other women that she is inspired by, she is, it's just terrible. I will say, so about Girl Wash Your Face, um, someone actually recommended the book to me. And, um, after experiencing the book, I was offended that someone thought I would like it.

Um, but so I got nine minutes in on the audiobook. I got it on the Libby app, uh, for the library. ‘Cause my, you know, as we discussed earlier, I don't love to give my money, um, to white men who write books and also to people, especially white people who I'm like kind of questioning, is this something that is going to be, that I'm going to be into or not? Um, so I waited until I got it from the library. 

Saraya, when I tell you I got, it was a struggle to get nine minutes in. It was just like the checklist of things that I would be turned off by, like the oh no-nos. We had like fatphobia, we had like religion evangelizing,ew had like weird internalized, like sexism? We had homophobia. We had, it was just like check, check, check, check, check. I, I. How does this woman get book deals? I was just appalled and yeah. So anyway, I cannot recommend the book, but I really can only give you the feedback of the first nine minutes. But you were right to swerve.

SB: I mean a little scandalous for me to have such a hot take on something that I haven't read myself, but I don't know, if you're gonna have—I think what's dangerous too, is that the preface of her work talks about healthism, which is what this piece said, like, “Oh, like I'm not anti-fat, I'm just saying that like, you have to be healthy,” which like, no, nobody has to be working towards their health at any given point.

And then she had some really, um, weird things to say about how, like, “How can you trust someone who can't stick to a diet,” or like, “You as a person have to be able to run without puking or like walk up the stairs without getting winded to be like a good person.” And it's like, okay, like that's super ableist and no, you don't have to do that.

CP: It's just, I, I feel like this speaks to a trend that I see, and I'm just so aggravated by, in, um, in like sort of personal development, even business, or like even personal finance kind of spaces. Um, a lot of the authors who are writing about these things are spending a lot of time relying on fatphobic imagery, or they're talking about weight loss or they're like comparing diets to like pres, like that's like the, I don't know, example they'll share related to pursuing goals. And it's just so frustrating that we can't, like, have books with these topics that don't, you know, have all of this like triggering stuff in them. 

But also too, it's like, that's a bad example. Like if you're going to talk about weight losses, like, like, oh, dieting is just like a budget, well, diets don't work. So like, that seems really silly, but like, that's kind of the long-term efficacy you're trying to show in this budgeting or like whatever, you know, trick you're trying to share or strategy you're trying to promote? Like, if you compare that to diets, like, that's a bad comparison. So not only is it a frustrating to even be exposed to that, it's just silly to see how people utilize those, um, utilize weight loss, and diets to compare to things that like, is not, uh, an accurate comparison or not what I think they're trying to do, you know?

SB: Absolutely. I didn't tell you this, but, um, at our, at my work, there was like a larger training, which was actually was handled quite well. Um, and it was just about conscious inclusion, but at the jump, somebody used dieting or like eating healthy foods as like an analogy to what we were doing. It's like, once you learn more about this—and I was like, you are missing the mark, so bad. But, uh, you know, definitely shared my feedback in that follow-up survey as one does, but I think that's, that's what is tricky with all of this too, like, um, using these as examples when it's just like not smart, it doesn't make logical sense, but then also the way that healthism is being like poured down our throat so much—like body positivity has historically been, just like cloaking using platitudes and cloaking, some really insidious stuff in healthism.

CP: So it will just kind of goes back to the, like this idea that like, “Oh, fat people are okay as long as” we're doing ABCDEFG, and it's like no fat people are okay. Period full stop, you know, um, it's just frustrating and it's just like a way that people like Rachel Hollis, for example, can, you know, um, can say that they are maybe body-positive or that they, you know, “everyone's beautiful how they are,” but then also cling to some of these like really, really troubling ideologies.

SB: Yeah. But that's enough. We don't need to talk about her anymore. We talked about her a lot, actually.

CP: That was a great hot take!

SB: So I would love to hear any hot takes you've got. 

CP: I think the only hot take, the only fat stuff that I might bring today, um, the, the last couple of weeks, uh, some things have come out about, you know, just more, you know—tale as old as time. Brands doing, not doing right by plus-sized customers, not reading the room, not really caring about plus-size people when they make decisions. Um, and a couple of those things—so recently The Loft, so The Loft started a plus-sized line a couple of years ago, and, um, it was a lot of work where a lot of it came through the shop. I was. I'm quite familiar with, I'm quite familiar with align because it was, you know, people were really buying it. Um, at least people in my circles. 

And recently, they didn't announce it, but like, they sort of said something about it in like the comments of an Instagram post, basically sharing that they're no longer gonna have plus sizes and that they're going to go—and so to me, I think that means they're going to go back to offering just up to double XL. Um, and it's just, I, I believe that it was attributed to like, financial considerations given, you know, the pandemic, and sure. I'm sure there's some financial things going on. But it's just, I mean, isn't this some bullshit is that like, plus sizes are rolled out later than anything else, and then are the first to go when something goes wrong, you know?

I would add it to the list of like a lot of different brands. One that comes to mind for me is H&M Plus. They still have their plus line, but it's not in stores. They had it in stores for a couple of years. No one knew about it, but it was there, and then when it didn't sell, well, they took it off the floor and it's like, of course it didn't sell well, you didn't do a good job of promoting it. 

There's you know, that girl, um, what is her last name is Sean Taylor, who was on The Circle last season. She talks, she just has a lot of stuff to say on the internet and I'm a fan of most of it. Um, and she shared this really good analogy or this good metaphor, I don't know if this is something unique to her, but she talks about how, like, you know, sometimes it feels like brands are like the cool kids table. And as plus-size people, it's like when the cool kids are like, you know, at, you know, you can come sit with us at lunch. It's like, sure. Just because you say that doesn't mean we're actually going to, like, what have you been mean for us or ignored us forever? How am I supposed to think, like, okay, now we'll come. I'll come sit with you, I'll come shop with you. 

Or like, maybe you're saying, “Oh, come over here, come, come sit with us,” but there's not even a chair for us to sit in or there's not even anything we'd be interested in doing at that table. You know, it's just like there, people can say, oh, we're gonna have plus sizes, but like to actually do the work of reaching out to folks and, and doing it right. I think that a lot of places are missing the mark. And then when they get rid of those lines or they scale back who's to blame Oh, it's plus sized people's fault for not patronizing us when like, really it's like, it's your fault for not.

SB: It's always our fault. (Both laugh)

CP: Right. So I don't know. That seems best, been a little bit, um, a hot topic of conversation lately. And then also, have you heard about the 11 Honoré, collab with Lena Dunham? 

SB: Oh my god, this episode should be called “White women who shall not be named.” I have not heard about her in such a long time and my life has been better for it, I think? I can’t. 

CP: Same. Same. 

SB: As someone who's seen every episode of Girls, like don't, don't get me wrong. Like I, I was there for all of it and still I—okay, I saw this headline, but I also don't know anything about it. 

CP: So 11 Honoré is a like luxury plus-size brand, which already kind of has some issues. Um, their sizing is really on the modest end of plus sizing. Not a lot of things go above a size 24. Um, but like it's the idea of it is cool. I always thought was cool. It's like, uh, a place where, so this brand doesn't have, I don't think they themselves make things, they like kind of source things from other luxury designers and then it's sold on their website and it's like, high-end stuff we're talking like hundreds of dollars for garments, which is typically out of my price range, but is something that was really lacking in plus-sized space, you know, like truly high-end stuff in, in true plus sizes. So the idea,  I don’t know , I think that's fine. Um, but just lacking in lots of ways, including sizing. 

So anyway, recently they decided, um, or they announced that they were collaborating with Lena Dunham, who is just like the most problematic of all the problems.

You know, I, there was a, uh, there was a tweet that was shared or something, a meme. That was like, you know what I can tell you, cancel culture is not real because Lena Dunham is still out here doing stuff. And I was like, oh yeah, they just collabed with her, and then they announced it in a really weird way.

Someone featured her in a piece, um, where she announced. This line that she's doing in collaboration with them, but like the piece is full of like a lot of problematic and fatphobic language. 

SB: No! Oh gosh.

CP: This was really a swing and a miss my friends! Um, you know, fraught history with Lena Dunham related to fat stuff, but also related to like a lot of other things, including, um, being like, uh, perpetuate—or, you know, sexual assault essentially. And so to think, um, I just, people—it was, it was just so clear that 11 Honoré, like didn't read the room, you know?

SB: Hmm. I mean, also we're talking about them. So like, maybe that's enough of a, a pull to collaborate with someone this way. 

CP: Do you think?

SB: I don't know, why not?

CP: I mean, I, I'm not their target market anyway. And then I guess there's something I think about, like, I'm not your, your, your customer. I don't have $500 to spend on dresses. So, you make a good point. Like perhaps they’re this is more, you know, coverage for them. The, the angry comments on those Instagram posts really make the, that, that traction, you know, they're getting a lot of traction on those because there is so much engagement and perhaps negative engagements really isn't, I don't know that big of a meal to them. 

SB: Yeah. To the point of cancel culture, like, does it exist? It's like people go quiet for a long enough time and then they can come back, pop back up again, make some cash. I don't know. Um, this is truly unrelated. No, it's not. It does have a gossamer thread, um, Zac Posen. Is that how the designer, is that how you say his last name? 

CP: I don't know.

SB: Okay. He is a clothing designer. He used to babysit Lena Dunham, which is interesting. And I know that he can do plus size. I don't know if he does good plus size, but he did the Delta uniforms when they changed over to that very classic, like dark purple look.

CP: I love those. 

SB: Yeah! So he did all of that. He's also on, or was on Project Runway for some, sometime, some amount of time. He might still be, I'm just like not connected to that universe. Um, but yeah, very interesting. So my one hope is that maybe she took some, some, I dunno, tips from Zac, from her babysitting days and like imbued it into this line of clothing.

CP: I don't have a doubt. It’s like there's like five or six pieces. They're not great, but also like they're not bad. It's just like if I had the money to spend, I would prefer not to spend money on that. Give my money to someone like her, you know?

SB: And that's that on that I think we've talked about enough of these white women who shall not be named.

CP: I agree.

SB: Um, let's talk about what we love to talk about, some media?

CP: Okay. Well, actually this is like another white woman, but we can name her. 

SB: I like her!

CP: Amy Poehler made a movie called Moxie that came out on Netflix a couple months, a month or two ago. Um, and we both watched it and quite liked it. 

SB: Mhmm, yeah! So I, like Cat told me about it in the first place. I had no idea. And then I was like— 

CP: Wait, wait, I told you about it?

SB: Yeah.

CP: Oh my god. I never tell you about anything you tell me about all the cool things. I forgot that that was the situation, and I'm so glad. 

SB: Like for instance, when Cat would like, we, I don't know if she'd like me to say this, but like I got to introduce her to Montero (Call Me By Your Name) by Lil Nas X.

CP: Well, now I hear everything everywhere, but yes, you were the first person to alert me to this.

SB: To the glory of that. Um, the controversy of that, but anyways, yeah. So I hadn't heard about it. and then Cat was like, Oh yeah, this movie is out. And I was like, not doing anything one night. I was like, Oh, I'll watch this, whatever. And I was like, enwrapped. It was very engaging. It is like, uh, it was giving me a new woke teen movie, um, and using that classic, like teen trope of like a girl at school, trying to figure things out, going through some challenges, um, finding a friend group. Um, and so, it was comforting in that like archetype style.

And then also, so did a lot of things that we haven't seen teen movies do, like trying to tell a lot of different stories, show a lot of different identities that don't usually get focused on. And I think in its endeavor to do that, it kind of missed the mark.. Like I wanted more from it. 

CP: I agree.

SB: But yeah, soundtrack was great. Um, oh, my gosh, the love interest, Nico Hiraga, he's in Booksmart and he is the perfect like himbo babe. Like I can't get over it. Um, and there's people like Ike Barinholtz, Josie Totah, Marcia Gay Harden, and agent Phil Coulson for all you Marvel fans out there. He's in it too. 

CP: It was, I mean, it was, it was, there were lots of things that I liked a lot. And I think because it did, it was like really trying to go there. I wanted more. And like you mentioned, it just like, I don't think they really, I don't think they really made it all happen in terms of, especially representation. It was like they tried to do it, but then they didn't get, we didn't get to hear as much as I wanted to from characters that ended up kind of on the sidelines, you know?

SB: Yeah, do we need, I mean, like, so it was this girl kind of like figuring out feminism and like figuring out how, uh, like wack her school system was and how they were really allowing some very bad behavior and harmful behavior to get away with it. And like, she started a zine and it was revolutionary. And that was like very cool.

CP: It was cool. And she was inspired by her mom. Like she's like looking at these things her mom, um, did when her mom was young and there's like, I mean, it feels like she has like this leather jacket that she puts on, that her mom wore. And it's just, the way that that happened, like kind of her way into it was really, really cool.

SB: And the soundtrack like mirrored that a lot. So there was a lot of Bikini Kill, but then introducing like newer artists, like Tierra Whack and Princess Nokia. And so it was really, I don't know, a really good merging some of these bigger themes and acknowledging that, you know, nobody was perfect. I think you brought this up too, that like the mom was like, yeah, we did a lot of stuff and it wasn't great. Like, we didn't know what we were doing and maybe still don't to some extent, and that messiness is still present. 

CP: It was like, yeah, we didn't know what we were doing, but we just like tried a bunch of stuff. And it sort of, I think in that conversation, I think the purpose of that was like to tell the teen daughter, like, so just try stuff, just do it. It's going to be messy, but it's worth doing, you know?

SB: Yeah. And I guess for one thing that I took away from it. So have you heard of the Kent test? 

CP: You, you told me about it. I hadn't heard it until you shared this with me. 

SB: Okay. So, I mean, it's named after the culture critic and writer Clarkisha Kent and it can be used to assess if a piece of media provides adequate representation of Black women and like women of color, similar to the Bechdel test, which like tries to see if there are women being adequately represented in a media piece.

And I like, used the Kent test with this movie and like the numbers added up to adequate representation or it's like sound representation. But I also think that they try to have so many different women, um, like tell their stories that nobody really got fully fleshed out, except for the main white character in some ways.

CP: Yeah. Yeah, like there's a scene at the end. It's kind of just like culminating moment at the very end. Um, when we have, it's like, as if—there's different girls who are going to like stand up and kind of share their truth, and we have one person who's not part of like the main character group do that, but then like no one else.

And it was like, this is just felt like an afterthought. And like that's honestly one of the only fat people we see in the, in the movie. And it was just like, come on. I don't know if there was. I like a theme with this. And honestly, with all of the things I consume, it was good and I wanted more.

SB: And this is like, maybe not a helpful comparison, but one thing that I walked away with, it's like, wow, this is very much of this time. Like you could not have gotten this movie earlier. And I think about like Tina Fey, because Amy Poehler and Tina Fey are connected in a lot of things. Um, I mean, not so much anymore, like, obviously with projects and things, but if you think about Mean Girls, like that was very of that time. Like very pointed.

And I feel like this as another team movie with, you know, some similar storylines, um, about like social structure and exploring who you are, figuring out what that means to like have your own voice, it's just done so dramatically differently and like—

CP: —Better!—

SB: It's kind of, well, I mean, we're also a decade out too, so I think it feels better because of what we had at that point, it was like what we had. I'm not being very eloquent with this, but. It's just interesting. It's interesting to see how they show. Oh, and there's other, just like one little point that is not important at all, but I love how they did the set design, because it felt like a teenage girl's house with a single mom, like, the house wasn't clean, it wasn't perfect. It was just like she was wearing some New Balance sneakers and a puff jacket. Like, yeah, you're in the Pacific Northwest, of course you'd be wearing that. I just really appreciated some of the details to making this realistic. 

CP: It did feel honest and real and actually Saraya, I like your comparison to Mean Girls. Like I think it gives me hope to think like, okay, in 10 years, what's the teen movie gonna look like then? And how much, how, how much more like evolution will, the kind of things we're talking about be like, then?

SB: Yeah, that's true. 

CP: I love it. Okay. I think—we have come to the end of our first full Fat Dish episode?

SB: A full! Fat! Dish! Yes, we have. You've made it to the end of our very first full Fat Dish episode. 

CP: We did it! A great start to Season Four. 

SB: Um, and as always, you can visit our website at www.matteroffatpod.com to find our show notes, transcripts, link to our Friends and Fans, Facebook page, uh, access to older episodes, public info and our tip jar—

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Both: —CASH! Fat Cash, baby!

SB: Go find it there.

CP: Please subscribe, rate, and review the podcast wherever you catch Matter of Fat, and okay, Saraya, can I, can I make the bold ask? Can I do it? 

SB: Be bold and be brave, baby, I guess? Okay. 

CP: So folks, if you’re listening to us right now, we would love, love, love for you to share, like right now, literally, if you're on your phone and it's safe to do so, take a screengrab or a pic of you listening to us and tag us in your story post on Instagram, or a wall post on Instagram or Facebook. We want to share your share!

SB: Love to share your IG story shares. Also, I understand, like Instagram grid and Facebook page real estate is like, very precious. And so if you do that, it means a lot to us.

CP: Some of the highest praise of all! 

SB: The highest praise, yes. As a discerning connoisseur myself. 

CP: Well, thanks, y’all we do really, truly appreciate your shares, your love and your support. As we get back into Season Four.

SB: Until next time, when we're back with another episode of—

Both: —Matter of Fat!