S3M5 - MoF Mini: Men as a Matter of Fat - Transcript

Released September 23rd, 2020. For complete episode details, visit this page!

[INTRO MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]

Saraya Boghani: Welcome to another Matter of Fat Mini!

Cat Polivoda: It's another action-packed minisode. 

SB:  Action! Intrigue! And the rad fat content you crave in minisode form from your fave body positive podcast with Midwest sensibilities. 

CP: Yes! All of that!

We talk about a lot of different aspects of fat liberation on the pod, and in our full episodes, we hear people’s stories as a matter of fat. In this Matter of Fat mini, we’re going to highlight men’s experiences in the fat liberation movement. 

SB: But before we dive in, we need to introduce ourselves! 

CP:  Yes! Hi! I’m Cat Polivoda, a local fat feminist and shop owner.

SB: And I’m Saraya Boghani a fat, multiracial, Minneapolitan millennial. 

CP: And we’re here to talk about men as--

CP+SB: —a matter of fat.

[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]

CP: Something I’ve heard fairly often from men is that body positivity and fat liberation feel a little complicated. So, we decided to make a minisode dedicated to sharing men’s perspectives! 

SB: And, of course, gender isn’t binary. But, one thing we know for sure is that our experiences as fat women are not the same as fat men. So, we asked men about their relationships to body positivity and/or fat liberation, what they want folks to know about being a guy who’s plus-size; big and tall; fat; husky; however they identify, and to share their resources or role models.

CP: For this minisode, we were really fortunate to have several guys answer these questions, sharing just a peek at their stories as a matter of fat. 

SB: Yes! We heard from Ben, Ian Harris, Jeff Jenkins, Koichi Macgregor, and Gianluca Russo. Let’s start with a smattering of context! 

CP: A little bit about each of these guys:

Ok so, Gianluca Russo is a freelance fashion and culture writer. He is a fashion reporter for Teen Vogue and has also written for GQ, Glamour, NYLON, InStyle, Fashionista, and more. He also recently founded “The Power of Plus,” a size-inclusive digital community. I’ve actually been to one of their book clubs and a panel they hosted recently on body neutrality, and I’m just really into what “The Power of Plus” is up to! 

SB: Ben is a friend and, by way of introductions, shared that he’s a 27 year old trans man, white, lives in Minneapolis, is a fat guy, and has always been fat. I love Ben for his dedication to Halloween costumes, the State Fair, fat pool parties, Lizzo, and just being an all around great dude. 

CP: Yeah! Fun fact, for all of you: Ben was our designated van driver to see Lizzo NYE 2018! Saraya, me, and lots of other fun folks. 

SB: It was a dream of a night! An absolute dream. A dream, just like our next guy, I mean, let’s keep it rolling.

Our next gentleman is Ian Harris. He graduated Spring 2020 from the University of Minnesota – Twin Cities with a B.S. in Apparel Design. This past February, he showcased his senior collection, Moi, which is a line of bold, bright, and sparkly plus-size separates for all genders. And, we were there cheering and living for his designs!

CP: Yes! Oh, I, that fashion show was so incredible. So,

Ian was an intern at Cake two summers in a row. So for his junior year, I got to go to this fashion show at the U of M where he had one item, knowing that a year later he would have a whole collection. And I was just—it was so great to be there, cheering him on,  and it was so, I mean, in so many ways I was so proud of Ian but one of the biggest reasons why is because no one else did plus-size lines. Like, not one other student designer that year or the year previous—I guess, those are the only two I can speak to cuz those were the only two shows that I was at—it was so cool to see Ian have a purely plus-size line, and really just show up and make us all proud.

And also, Ben was in the fashion show! He was part of--he wore one of the styles Ian designed for the collection. comment about fashion show.

SB: Ah, it was so beautiful. What a small and beautiful world. Through Ian’s design work, he said he hopes to create pieces that bring light and joy into the world. I mean, what more can you ask than that? We’ll also hear from Jeff Jenkins who’s an entrepreneur, award-winning content creator, and speaker. Jeff, whose instagram handle is @chubbydiaries__, recently created and circulated a “Big Guys are Sexy Too” on Instagram reels, highlighting a bunch of fashion inspo-worthy guys and Oh, my, God, please check that out. Just, do yourselves a favor! 

CP: (swoons) Yes, I couldn’t get enough of it! And what’s also fun is we’ll get some comments from the fifth guy, who is Koichi Macgregor, who was also in that “Big Guys are Sexy” round-up as well! Koichi is a plus-size tattoo model.

SB: I mean, if you haven’t had these gentlemen on your radar, you’ve gotta look ‘em up now! We were so happy to hear from these folks and so appreciate the time they took to share with us. This is a topic we really wanted to unpack, but we knew we needed to hear from others in order to do it justice. So, lots of love and thanks to these guys for sharing their thoughts and experiences with us! 

CP: We so so so appreciate them. Y’know, this is really important stuff! And, to that end, let’s get started with the first topic we asked them about.

SB: Yeah! First, we wanted to know how these guys think about their connection to body positivity and/or fat liberation. While these movements are interrelated, they're not the same and, actually, Ian broke them down really well. Cat would you, would you just share what he shared with us?

CP: Yeah! So Ian said:

“When asked to define the two concepts, I would say that body positivity is the concept of loving your body and being respectful towards other people’s choices about their bodies (regardless of size, age, skin color, ability, gender, etc.). Anybody can be body positive. Whereas, fat liberation specifically centers the voices of people with larger bodies who have been looked down on by mainstream society. Fat liberation wants fat people to not be discriminated against because we’re bigger. We want the same access to fashion and healthcare and jobs and freaking seats on airplanes that every other straight sized person doesn’t think twice about because it’s not a problem for them.” 

SB: Beautifully put, and we agree! For a more in-depth dive into both body positivity and fat liberation, make sure to reference some other season 3 minisodes.

CP: Another important concept, which we haven’t done a minisode on yet, is the concept of body neutrality. Instead of body positivity, body neutrality encourages us to recognize what our current body can do for us, to accept ourselves and our bodies--but in less of a, “YOU HAVE TO LOVE YOUR BODY” type of way. 

SB: (laughs) There’s a lot of nuance to fighting against the status quo and harmful beauty ideals, and Ian dove into these nuances beautifully when he said, quote:

“Personally, I support fat liberation while feeling a little bit indifferent about body positivity as I think that body positivity has become a bit watered down (through commercialization and muddying of the definition). Most of my views have been informed by interning at Cake Plus-Size Resale (Cat: Awww!) and being exposed to the online fat community, especially the online plus-size fashion community. I think I’ve considered [this] more as a younger person, than somebody like my dad who is fat but of a different generation and doesn’t really view his fatness as something can be marginalized.” C: My heart! I loved having Ian at Cake--and also, I love his dad. 

SB: We at Matter of Fat have a fond affinity for lovely parents and, of course, Cake! But what a wonderful acknowledgement of generational thinking, too, I think that’s important to note.  Ian goes on to say, quote:

“Although I do support fat liberation and acceptance, I am constantly working through my own feelings towards my body and myself. There are days where I don’t feel so great towards my body. I think that it is important to say this, because everybody has opinions about their body (both positive and negative). I think too often we don’t feel comfortable sharing our feelings – men in particular.” 

CP: Oooh, and that sentiment was somewhat echoed by Gianluca! He explained his way into body positivity and how, today, he aligns more with body neutrality and fat liberation. 

Gianluca Rossi (clip): Well, like many other people, I have a really complicated relationship with body positivity in particular. So the movement first entered my life when I was in high school, when I was about a junior, and I really needed it then. I had a really complicated relationship with my body, many body image issues, I was struggling with an eating disorder, um, and I had a really bad self worth at the time.

So finding body positivity through, you know, Ashley Graham and mainstream magazines really changed my life and empowered me to not let my weight prevent me from my passion at the time, which was dance. And so, I used body positivity then to push me to continue to break down these limits and barriers within the dance community, and eventually I became one of the best male dancers in my hometown community theater area, and was often called into productions to fill the dancer slots and to be the dance captain.

I was always conscious of the fact that I was the only fat one in those rooms, right? So all of these other people, uh, in the musical theater companies and in the cast were all thin, for the most part, and I was the only fat one. And not only was I the only fat one, but I was also the lead dancer, and so I was always very aware that that was different and something special and something that's not common. I was very grateful for body positivity, that it gave me the confidence to be able to do that and the strength to put myself in those situations and to push myself and to not let my weight hold me back.

Now, it's been, you know, five or six years since I was in high school--I'm almost 23 now--and I really don't feel connected to body positivity anymore, especially now that I'm very in with the movement and very knowledgeable about what is body positivity? What is fat liberation? What's fat acceptance?

What's body neutrality? Now that I work in this space and I really understand it for what it is, I have much less of a connection to the movement because to me it feels very unrealistic in a lot of ways. It's something that I do love to preach, but it feels kind of impossible to practice in my personal life.

So, yes, I 100% believe that everyone should feel beautiful and proud and happy in their body. But at this point in time, that's just not how I feel about myself. You know, I'm going through an eating disorder a few months ago, the same one that I had when I was in high school, you know, a resurgence of it. I'm dealing with a lot of body image issues since the start of this quarantine, and so every day it feels like harder and harder to connect with that body positivity that I resonated so well with in high school. So I will always be an advocate of body positivity, because I know that it helps so many people, it provides so many resources and confidence and strength, and for many people, they can connect with it.

But for me personally, it feels unattainable to be able to wake up every morning and be like, "I love myself. I can do all these things." Um, to me, I connect much more with body neutrality and fat liberation, which remind me that regardless of how I feel about my physical appearance, I'm still worthy. And so worthy of happiness and success and love, and all these other things that aren't dependent on the way I look, right? 

And so that's a message I'm more passionate right about because for me, and for many others, the goal is to always feel proud—um—the goal of always feeling proud and happy with your body, it's just unrealistic. It's unattainable, we're in a society that tells us every day that we should hate ourselves if we're fat, it's very difficult to fight against those messages, and that's why it's such a lifelong journey.

And so, yeah. Body neutrality for me is really more reflective of that journey, really more helpful because it says that, you know, some days you're gonna feel great, some days you're gonna  feel bad, and neither one of those has to negate the fact that you are still worthy of achieving everything you want to achieve, because success should not be based on the way you look, right? Even though that's the way society tells us and teaches us, it should not, you know, our size, whether we're thin, muscular, that should not have an impact on whether or not it we're successful or happy. So regardless of how we feel about our looks, we still deserve respect and equal treatment, and that's of course on a person-to-person level, in the medical industry, in the workplace, we deserve equal treatment. Um, and that goes back into fat liberation and the origins of the fat acceptance movement.

Um, to have that kind of, those levels of equality that we have been denied. And of course we can dig further into that and talk about the states that allow you to be fired for being fat, or medical fatphobia and how that literally kills people, or all these other levels here--I mean, there's so many ways that fat people are denied access and equal treatment that we can get into. But that's why I resonate much more now with body neutrality and fat liberation than I did with body positivity when I was younger and in high school. 

SB: Another viewpoint comes from Jeff Jenkins, who shared that there are lots of different aspects to the movement and he situates himself primarily within plus-size travel. When reflecting on body positivity and fat liberation, he says, quote,  “I am eternally grateful for this movement, I would not have the confidence and the assurance that my body is not an apology and that I’m this handsome individual!”

CP: This is so good! I appreciate that phrasing, “the body is not an apology”. Not only a great sentiment, it reminds me of the work of Sonya Renee Taylor which we should also link for y’all in the show notes.

SB: On the website! 

CP: Yes! (laughs)

SB: So, who do we hear from next, Cat?

CP: Ben shared a bit about his introduction into the world of body positivity and then fat liberation through one of the most relatable ways for those of our generation--Tumblr!

SB: Love it.

Ben (clip): I am a fat guy. Um, I've always been fat even before I was a guy. And so my relationship to fat liberation and body positivity, um, started with Tumblr in about 2013, as many good  things did. And I started, um, just sort of stumbled into it, right? Where you start following accounts and looking at more pictures of fat people, beautiful fat people until it becomes normal. And so that seeing fat people in media, and in art, um, led me to realizing that my own body is okay, and then taking that a step further into activism that fat people are in need of some justice and some respect and some fairness. 

SB: It’s so good to hear from these men to see what overlaps with our experience and how it diverges.

CP: Because men are so underrepresented in fat liberation conversations, we really wanted to hear about what they want folks to know about being a guy who’s plus-size, big and tall, fat, husky--however they identify--and they all had really good stuff to share!S: They sure did! I mean, Gianluca shared some really compelling thoughts about toxic masculinity! 

GR (clip): I think what many people don't realize is exactly what we're fighting against as plus-size men. So it's a different battle than what women have been fighting for about two decades now. What we're really fighting against here is not just stigmas against fat bodies, because if you look at it, women--fat women--are treated worse by society than fat men.

And so if you look at media representations of fat men over the past 20 years, right, there are some. They're not necessarily positive, you know, they paint fat men as being lazy or worthless or jokes, but we have them because society treats fat women worse than fat men. 

CP: I appreciate him naming that! Like, fatphobia impacts folks of all genders but in lots of ways, fat women have experienced a far heavier burden. 

SB: Yeah, and then he goes on to really unpack that in regard to toxic masculinity! If we’ve said it once, we’ve said it a million times--liberation must be intersectional! 

CP: Yesss!

And so, the struggle that we are facing is more rooted in this kind of deeply engrained toxic  masculinity. There's so many levels to that, but for starters, if we're talking about fashion, the average plus-size man in America, doesn't care about fashion for a few reasons.

Men in general take less interest in clothes because it's viewed as a feminine interest, and this is especially true for fat men who feel unworthy or, um, you know, feel like they don't even deserve to look good in the first place. So a vast majority of men, plus-size or not view the topic of body positivity as a female-only movement.

And unfortunately, many of them are fatphobic themselves. And so I receive comments all the time that are from fat men saying, "well I'm fat, but I also think that fat people should just lose weight and I should just lose weight. And so a lot of fat men--because of the way society has kind of programmed them and taught them--have this deep-rooted internal lies fatphobia that is tied directly to this toxic masculinity. And so not only is it that they hate their body, but they also don't think the movement that women created resonates with them because of these gender norms, and because of the way, uh, body positivity has been labeled as a feminine movement. So unfortunately, we're not just fighting stigma and systemic fatphobia here.

We're really fighting toxic masculinity, which is an incredibly difficult battle ahead of us. And it's what is preventing us from growing as a community and taking steps forward. 

CP: I think how he broke this down is so powerful!  You know, I’m still thinking about how internalized fatphobia in men coupled with toxic masculinity paints bopo as a movement where they don’t belong or shouldn’t belong. And I don’t know, I just feel like that causes for literally everyone! 

SB: Yeah, yeah. And it feels like two sides of the same coin, toxic masculinity and misogyny.  Generally speaking, men won’t buy into a “women’s” movement because of gender expectations which can be fueled by a disgust for women and, especially, fat women. It’s just like, this nasty catch-22, baby!

CP: Woof. Gianluca goes on to explore the connection between weight and masculinity, a topic which he’s reporting on later this fall in his new monthly column for Nylon. 

GR (clip): So another thing that we really need to be looking into is the intersection of weight and masculinity. So this is the topic I'll be reporting on shortly with my column at Nylon, "Plus Us;" it's a monthly column that I've launched that explores these topics, and I'll be digging into it later this fall, but the basis is this: as weight is added to the body, traditionally masculine features fade away, making the body appear more feminine and gender neutral. So this plays right back into toxic masculinity and leaves a lot of fat men feeling not "man" enough. So there's this extra component of low self-worth for fat men that really isn't being addressed, because this topic of "not man enough" is so widespread among men, you know, fat or not of different races have different heights, of different abilities.

Every man, in a different way, at one point in his life, likely feels not man enough, and this is especially true for fat men because they feel without muscles and six packs and huge thighs and kind of this unfortunate norm that the media and Hollywood and society has created, if they don't fit that very narrow box, that they're not worthy enough to be a man. And so that is a deeply rooted topic that, of course, of course, you know, has layers of toxic masculinity and fatphobia to it. But it's so important that we address that and we address this low self worth, and we address all these different layers, because if we don't break these down first and have these conversations, there's no way we're gonna get brands to make our size, or there's no way we're gonna see more positive representation.

The first steps are to break down these layers; that is what women had to do two decades ago, and now they're at the point now where they're starting to see positive representations, but look, it took 20 years to get here, right? So we can't expect this to happen overnight for men. If anything, it's going to take even longer for men because of these layers of toxic masculinity.

But if we don't know what we're fighting for and what we're fighting against here, there's gonna be no--there's going to be no winning the battle. We need to know what we're fighting against and what conversations we need to be having, or else what we're doing is just pointless.

CP: You know, it feels like conversations about “fitting into a narrow box”, to take Gianluca’s words, or like, unattainable beauty standards is really common right now for women and femmes, but, that isn’t extended to men in the same way! Or, the idea of not being “man enough” whatever that is. . . 

SB: Just another reason why toxic masculinity is, in fact, toxic! 

CP: Living up to its name! It’s also interesting to consider how he compares the strides made for women in this regard to the work that needs to be done for men and masculine folks. On the one hand, it’s rough to acknowledge how much needs to change. But I wonder perhaps, if it’s a little heartening to see that some of these perspectives have really developed for women, and to know that might be possible for others?

SB: So, Gianluca brought up fashion in his examples and has more to say, as do our other guys!

GR (clip): And so if we look at fashion in particular, brands aren't making our sizes yet. Why is that? Well, of course there are plus size men. There are statistics that show that a majority of men in the United States are plus size, but it's more than just a number here, because you have to look at exactly who comprises that statistic, right? And so a majority of those men, I believe, do not care about fashion. I believe a majority of those men are people in the middle of the country, outside of New York and LA, who are not businessmen, are not working in the entertainment industry are not working in Hollywood, don't have high profile jobs--they're average men, working nine to fives in the middle of the country, very separate from what, you know, I'm used to and what many others are used to in the body positivity movement. They're people who don't receive the representation, and maybe there are people who, you know, fit that stereotype, um, that we see on TV. And so they're not interested in fashion.

And so yes, there are men who are plus-size who would wear a size 2X, 3X, 4X. Yes, but are they gonna buy the clothes if these brands make them? That's what we're fighting here. So we're not necessarily just fighting brands because yes, could brands be making more plus size? Of course, they can always be doing that because, you know, it's difficult, but you learn, and you do it, and I think some brands like Bonobos are doing a really great job at it, but we have to change the mindset of men first, and this is where it goes back to.

Because if you look at women, 20 years ago, a lot of women did not feel like they deserved to have a role in fashion. A lot of women were fatphobic themselves. Before you can change the brands and the fashion industry, you have to change the mindsets of the consumers. Now that is the difficult thing, and that's why the men's body positivity movement, uh, you know, size diversity menswear, is so far behind, because we're going about it the wrong way, I believe. We're going about it holding brands accountable, but ultimately, these brands are not gonna care, they're not gonna make our size until we can show them that the men of this demographic really care.

CP: I wonder about, as an extension of this, you know, perhaps many men aren’t interested in fashion in the way Gianluca might be. (And of course there’s, of course, a lot of toxic masculinity in here stopping some folks who might be inclined to express themselves through fashion!) But, I wonder if comfort, clothes that fit, and options are things most men want and need? I mean, I guess I think those are things that all people want and need! 

SB: Hmm, yeah. Ian speaks to that a bit as he weighed in on fashion. He says, quote: 

“We have just the same kind of struggles with finding clothing that we like (whether it’s a garment that fits us how we want or reflects our personal style) that I think women do. However, the conversation about plus-size fashion is always geared towards womenswear. Like why do we have Torrid, Lane Bryant, Universal Standard, EIoquii, etc. that cater to mostly women, but not nearly the amount of options for plus-size men? I find that a little bit isolating as someone who prefers menswear and gender-neutral items and has a hard time shopping (especially size-inclusive/ethically made brands). As a designer and somebody who cares about fashion, I feel like fat men are the last group considered in fashion. There are hardly any stores that I can go into and pull something off the rack and have it fit me, which limits my options significantly. 

CP: Yes, lack of options is a struggle plus-size women--especially those of us who are a little older and, y’know, were shopping at Fashion Bug and Lane Bryant when we were 12--can really relate to.

SB: Oh my goodness, don’t bring in the Fashion Bug! (Both laugh) But Ian’s right! There are more and more options for womenswear while the same strides haven’t been made in menswear or in more gender-neutral styles.

CP: Ian did share a few places where he has luck finding clothes. He said: “Right now, most of my wardrobe is made up of JCPenney’s big and tall brand The Foundry, Duluth Trading Company’s denim jeans, ASOS for contemporary or special pieces, random T-shirts, and thrifted pieces from Cake.”

SB: Love that. Love that so much. Good tips. 

Ben shared some similar thoughts and has a message for quote “big and tall” designers: 

“The thing that I would like people to know about being, uh--I, you know, there's the whole like, "big and tall" I'm big and short, right. If I could speak to a big and tall clothing designers, um, is that fat people are fuckin' fun and we'd like some fun clothes. So, especially fat men. I don't wanna wear the gray shirt and the khaki pants or the blue and the navies and the grays. I wanna wear the bright patterns, the bold patterns, the orange, the pink, the purple. So, it's been really hard to find fun clothes, um, and high quality clothes that go up to the size that I need them to. So, um, that's my word to any aspiring fashion designers out there. Um, in particular, somebody else to follow up with is Ian Harris.

He's a 2020 grad of the U of M fashion and apparel program, and he had his runway show debut--well, not his debut, but his senior line show this year at the University of Minnesota, which focused on all fat people, um, and focused around celebration of the joy and pattern, bright patterns, bold patterns, and, um, really celebration of fat bodies.

So, another person to keep an eye on as he moves forward in the world. Got big dreams for you, Ian.”

CP: It’s so cool to hear Ben shout Ian out especially because what Ben wants in fashion, Ian is creating! 

SB: It’s so beautiful to see that right here in the Twin Cities.  One more thought on fashion from Ian! He shares, quote: 

“The more that we share our struggles and see that others feel the same way, we can begin to make change by calling for brands and designers to start including us. My whole hope with my degree in apparel design is to go into established companies and shake things up a bit by demanding more inclusivity. Every person, regardless of size or gender, should have the same access to clothing.”

CP: Oh, go Ian. Yes! I’m here for all of this conversation and also want to recognize the similarities and differences in these perspectives that have been shared, especially around fashion. As you may have gleaned, we didn’t just stick to the Midwest for this one and reached out to men from around the country. Gianluca brought up the Midwest as being a bit different fashion spaces than the coasts--which, let’s be real, it is! But also, Ian and Ben, both here in the Twin Cities expressed that they’re looking for bolder fashion options to express themselves. So, part of the mindset shift that Gianluca hopes takes place is already happening!

SB: I want to reiterate Ian’s last bit where he said that “Every person, regardless of size or gender, should have the same access to clothing,” because that just comes down to what we’re about - basic human dignity and respect. Like, how can you argue against that? 

CP: Absolutely. And you don’t have to take my word for it!  You can take Jeff’s! (Saraya laughs) He said, quote, “I want people to listen to me and other plus-size guys, where we are at right now. My hope is that people continue to get out of their own minds about my life decisions/appearance and continue to respect us as human beings.”

SB: That’s what it is, care enough to see us how we want to be seen and ask to be seen.  Jeff also shared something particularly pertinent, in my opinion.  He said, quote:

“Stop calling me ‘Big.’ My name is Jeff, not Big Jeff. It bothers me so much that people think it’s OK to add an adjective onto my name because of my physical appearance. They don’t do that for other appearances like ‘Freckle Face Tom!’” 

I appreciate hearing that because I think that happens almost exclusively with men or masculine people. 

Dang, this has been such a good topic for us to explore, Cat. What else have you taken away from what these gents have shared?

CP: Another theme that came up in their responses is something we preach, too! Diversifying our feeds to see ourselves represented and also to be exposed to those we don’t always see in mainstream media. 

SB: Yes! See all the splendors of the world! Change up that feed! 

CP: When we asked what he wanted us to know, Koichi said: “Well, we’re very handsome men, being plus-size”! And that he wants “to show love and positivity to the world,” which he does on social media.

SB: Like we mentioned, Koichi was part of that “Big Men are Sexy Too” video that Jeff Jenkins circulated. There were maybe 10 guys in that and it was one of the the largest roundups of plus-size men I’d personally seen. There’s still such a need for masculine representation within fat communities! 

CP: Yeah, there sure is.

SB: Another beautiful part of diversifying our feeds is how we can learn from folks. Ben shared that this happened to him as he was better understanding body positivity and his gender identity.

BV (clip): I think I would like people to know is, for other fat guys or fat people, especially fat trans people, is that it's okay--um, and not just okay, but it's important--that we show  ourselves the  same amount of love that we show thin trans people. There's a lot of centering of thin white bodies that happens in the trans community.

And to work to diversify the people that we idolize because that will come back in our reflection of ourselves. And so when I think about the person, um, or the resource that I would like to share, I want to just share a recommendation to follow and read the works of J Aprileo; they on Instagram are @comfyfattravels. I believe they may have a website under Comfy Fat.

Back in, you know, 2013, 2014 and the height of Tumblr for me, I had seen a post that they had made about the relationship between fatness and gender. And it's been talked about in other places on the show where, you know, women and femme people have to be high femme in order to be seen as performing a gender at all, but when it comes to transness, a lot of people. trans or cis, experience--a lot of fat people experience a disconnect from their body, right? It's our fatness and society's treatment of that leads us to dissociate and disconnect from our own bodies. We don't relate to it. We don't want to see it. We don't necessarily, celebrate it the way that it should be.

So when it comes to gender and being trans, I think that was a huge factor for m—or at the very least, something that I related to in this post that J Aprileo made about how coming too fat liberation, coming to body positivity, helped them connect to their body, which helped them realize that they were trans, right? And so that they are, they're absolutely a great person to follow and a great example of how connecting to yourself, celebrating yourself, ridding yourself of negative stereotypes can lead to positive outcomes in so many other areas of your life as well. 

CP: Yessss, J!! What a babe and the kindest soul! And, to your point, Saraya, a reason why it’s so important to see folks we can identify with represented!! 

SB: Love to hear it! And, that recommendation from Ben to follow J is a perfect transition into the last topic we asked these guys about! We asked them to share people they looked up to or folks they consider as role models.

CP: It was so so so sweet to hear a few guys name other men we spoke with! (swoons) Heart eyes emojis, all day.

SB: (laughs) Not only will we mention some resources and role models here, we’ll be sure to link them all for you on our website so they can be resources for you!! 

CP: Let’s start with this lovefest #MutualAdmirationSociety!

You heard Ben shout out Ian earlier! Then, Ian mentioned Gianluca as someone whose work he’s really engaged with. Ian said:

“I enjoy reading the work of plus-size fashion journalist Gianluca Russo. He is somebody my age who I can relate to in the online plus-size community. I am really inspired by the number of stories that he gets published and the digital community he created called the Power of Plus.”

SB: Gianluca also shared someone within plus-size fashion that he looks up to AND also expressed difficulty finding men as advocates within these spaces.

GR (clip): I have many role models, both within and outside the plus-size, but someone from within our community who I truly admire is Nicolette Mason. So not only is she an incredible advocate, but she's so smart and really takes the time to think and process every situation, which I think is something that we all need to really more take into more account and prioritize. Because in our quote-unquote, "cancel culture", if you wanna call it that, it's so easy to rush to a judgment when we don't understand things, and that's especially true in the fashion industry. We'll often look at a brand who isn't making plus and be like, "You guys hate fat people. Why aren't you making plus?" But the reality is that there's a lot that goes into making plus sizes. It's a lot behind the scenes that a lot of people don't realize.

So instead of jumping to make these conclusions into attack, which happens so often, we have to take the time to break things down, to have conversations where we can understand these different aspects first. And that's something Nicolette has taught me, that nothing is black or white, especially in fashion.

So whether it's a reason a brand hasn't done plus, or the ways designing for fat bodies is difficult, or conversations like that, I believe that we have to have to be more understanding as a community, and that's really the only way we're going to be able to progress forward. So there just aren't really many men, even in our community who are advocates or who I feel are starting great dialogues.

Most of the ones with the biggest platforms are just models, right? And so they are big and tall models. They will occasionally go and do campaigns. A lot of them work for Target, or Old Navy, or similar campaigns. I've loved Zach Miko, and I think, you know, he is probably my go-to as a leader in the men's space.

I think he's doing amazing work as a model and is working really hard and breaking out so many barriers. But I think the problem is that many of these men with the biggest platforms don't seem to have a voice of an advocate, which is understandable because they're models, right? They shouldn't have to be advocates.

They shouldn't have to, you know, be activists on the ground fighting for--fighting against toxic masculinity and doing these things. That's ultimately not their job, so we can't expect that of them. The problem is, though, that they're the only ones we have, and so we don't have other men who are speaking up about these issues, who are creating these dialogues, creating these places to go to have these conversations and I think it's a matter of time before that happens. But it's unfortunate, because in the women's space we have top models, you know, the female equivalents of Zach Miko, who do great  things there, and then we also have the advocates, right? And so they're, they're separate groups. In the men's space, we only have the models. So it's hard for me to look at role models for myself personally, because I don't feel like we have plus-size male advocates for body positivity. 

SB: Jeff shared that Bruce Strugell, founder of Chubstr.com, is his role model. He said, “His platform has taught me that big men can look good as well. Also that there is the worldview that has a negative or laughable view of big men, but Chubstr shows me that we are sexy, cool, and handsome.”

CP: Yesss! You know, I’ve often shared Bruce and Chubstr as a resource! I think that, in many ways, his platform actually does marry the model AND advocate identities that Gianluca mentioned.

SB: And for some folks, it’s more personal! Koichi said his parents are his role models because, quote, “They always inspire me to work hard at my craft and do my modeling in full force”. 

CP: Ohhh, so lovely that Koichi gets that support from his parents! S: Again, we love good parents! We love them. 

Ok, and finally, Ian shared one more! He said, quote:

“For the longest time growing up, the only character that I saw myself in was Damian from the movie Mean Girls. He was hilarious and comfortable with himself in terms of both his body and his sexuality, and even if I wasn’t at the time, I could still relate to him. Damian was played by Daniel Franzese, who has since done a lot of activism work with the LGBTQ+ community. I love following him on Instagram, as his #bigboysummer or #bigandtallfall posts are very inspiring and fun!”

CP: “He doesn’t even go here!?” (Both laugh)

SB: Is that it!? 

CP: Yeah, that’s the end of this section. 

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SB: Okay, Cat, how’d we do with the action, intrigue, and rad, fat, cravable content?

CP: Well, action--check! 

SB: Ok, how? I want us to deliver to our Matter of Fat community.

CP: I mean, did you hear the audio!? Did you get the perspectives from FIVE folks in ONE minisode!? I mean, that’s action packed!!

SB: Alright, honestly, I think we also did intrigue. This was an intriguing topic!

CP: And it’s us, so we’ve always got that rad fat content for you! For those rad fat show notes, transcripts, and additional episodes visit www.matteroffatpod.com! 

SB:  Excellent. Subscribe, rate, and review Matter of Fat wherever you get your podcasts! Special thanks to Ben, Jeff, Koichi, Gianluca, and Ian! We appreciate you!

CP: Tune in next time for another episode of—

CP+SB: —Matter of Fat!

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SB: Uh, Cat, I don't—I don't think that—how long is a minisode? 

CP: (laughing) How long is a minisode? This is the longest minisode ever. 

SB: The mega-mini. It's not quite a regular episode, it's a mega-mini. They won't notice, will they?

CP: Action! Intrigue! 

SB: That's what you get. You get a feature length film. When you try to deal with the action. 

CP: That's where we're at here, folks.

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