S3M6 - MoF Mini: Fat Microaggressions - Transcript

Released October 31st, 2020. For complete episode info, visit this page!

Saraya Boghani: Welcome to another Matter of Fat mini.

Cat Polivoda: That's right! We're back with another minisode.

SB: In our last mini, we heard from several men as a matter of fat. This time we get to hear from some other fabulous people.

CP: Yeah! Cause we've got submissions. We asked y'all for stories, and you delivered.

SB: Mhmm!

CP: We talk about a lot of different aspects of fat liberation on the pod, and in our full episodes, we hear people's stories as a matter of fat. In this Matter of Fat mini, we're going to discuss fat microaggressions, and work through possible ways to respond.

SB: But before we get to it, we need to introduce ourselves.

CP: Hi! I'm Cat Polivoda, a local fat feminist and shop owner.

SB: And I'm Saraya Boghani, a fat, multiracial, Minneapolitan millennial.

CP: And we're here to unpack some microaggressions as—

—a matter of fat!

[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]

CP: Before we we get into these juicy submissions, we need to explain what we mean by “microaggressions”. To do so, we enlisted the help of a friend of the pod and our friend, Susun Xiong.

SB: And she really knows what she's talking about. Susun is pursuing a PhD in disability studies. She is passionate about disability justice, and well-versed in inclusive research practices. Her research interests are in disability-specific microaggressions and older adults with developmental disabilities.

CP: We asked her to share with us how she defines microaggressions and give an example, which she does from a disability justice lens.

Susun Xiong (on recording): Microaggressions are coverts and subtle forms of discrimination and oppression. They manifest in day-to-day interactions that perpetuate ableism, racism, sexism, xenophobia, and more. Microaggressions such as asking a disabled person how they got their disability may appear harmless, but reinforces ableist ideas around who is afforded privacy and autonomy.

Regardless of intent, microaggressions are insidious and a reflection of longstanding systemic oppression. They function to dismiss and invalidate lived experiences of marginalized people, and the consequences of inequity.

CP: Thanks Susun!

SB: So, in developing this mini, we were really thinking of everyone, all of our audience members. We're making this for fat folks who have experienced these indecencies because it's validating to know you're not alone, and also maybe even helpful to talk through them.

CP: We're also making this for folks who aren't fat or haven't experienced these kind of things, to consider the type of comments people in larger bodies are subjected to, and maybe even to think through how you might respond from the sidelines or speak up in solidarity.

SB: And we're also thinking of the folks who may hear themselves as the microaggressors. Folks of all sizes can be complicit in fatphobia. We're not perfect people as a whole, and hopefully hearing other people's stories will cause us to pause and think about our impact.

CP: So wherever you're coming from, we're looking forward to digging into these scenarios. Thanks so so much to everyone who shared their stories with us. Uh, Saraya, what do we have first?

SB: Our first submission comes from Carly. Um, the topic is about gross comments on body changes.

CP: (Disgusted noise)

SB: So Carly writes: "I recently visited home, Minnesota, for the first time since I moved to Colorado in December last year. We all know how much has changed during that time, and one of the things that has literally changed for me this year is my body. I've lost some weight, due to anxiety, stress, insomnia, and the addition of an antidepressant, which has decreased my appetite.

CP: “The first thing members of my family and some of my friends said when they saw me wasn't, "Wow, have you lost weight?!" Because they know I would have words for them if they did." Wow, love that. Carly. Instead, they masked that sentiment by saying things like, "You just look so happy," and, "You've gotten so fit!"

Once I responded, "Antidepressants are a hell of a drug," hoping they would catch the hint that my body has changed as a result of my mental health and was not intentional, but quickly realized that they translated that as if I were lauding the medicine for my weight loss when the reaction I got was, from a thin friend, "I've got to get me some of that," while pinching the skin in her stomach."

Yikes!

SB: Cringe. "I wanted to go off, but it was afraid of ruining the vibe of the socially-distant picnic we were having, and didn't want to center myself. Yet my vibe was ruined and I didn't enjoy the rest of my evening. Do you have any suggestions of how to call out slash call in friends or families when they comment things like that, without being accused of being sensitive or a Debbie downer?

CP: Oh, Carly! Woof.

SB: Yeah. And there's also a cute little kissy face emoji at the end, which is very sweet.

CP: Back atcha, Carly! (Both laugh)

Okay, so this is maybe not helpful, but I have to say one of my first thoughts about this is that I love the fact that these folks know they can not explicitly comment on your weight. Like, you are training your people, Carly! Um, but also it makes me sad to know that like, you've put that work in, and clearly they've listened in some ways, but like they still, maybe their hearts haven't changed, right. They just like, know how to walk to their words, you know?

SB: Yeah. I saw a comment the other day--this'll, this'll relate. I promise--I saw a comment on Twitter the other day where somebody was fat shaming the president, and they were saying like, "Yeah, like they're fat, I'm also chunky, but it doesn't count as fat shaming if, uh, like it's for somebody I don't like."

CP: No, it doesn't work like that.

SB: No, that's not how it works, because you're still not recognizing that the issue is, you know, shaming someone for how they exist as a human being. And so, as much as it is great that people realize that that can be hurtful and are trying to avoid that, they haven't realized that like the inherent thing here is that, you know, people being bigger is not an issue, right? It shouldn't be the issue.

CP: Yeah. Oh man. I guess one thing that I'm thinking about--and I imagine this will come up, like in all of the scenarios that we discuss today--it's like, what are you kind of hoping will happen here, you know? Like, Carly, you're asking for our thoughts, which I'm so excited to, to share some, right? But I'm wondering, do we just want to like, you know, make this moment end, and keep it moving? Do we want to educate the people that are around us? Like what, what is the goal? Because I feel like your response, um, will change based on, like, what you're hoping to get out of the situation, you know?

SB: Mhmm, yeah. I'm just like, okay, in the moment responses are what dreams are made of.

CP: Truly.

SB: And they end up being imaginary conversations, for me. For like, self-conversations for many months afterwards. And I think like, what you're asking is, what could I have said in that moment, especially a precarious balance of doing a socially-distant picnic when you're in town for only so long, like trying to enjoy that moment, and it may be an in-the-moment comment isn't the way to make an impact. So like, if these folks are close enough to you to know, like at a high level, what not to say, maybe they're also close enough to listen to recommendations after all of this went through?

CP: That's a good idea. That's a great idea.

SB: Yeah. I mean, like not to be so bold to offer up this episode of the podcast--

CP: Oh my gosh, oh my gosh, that would be--I mean, wow, the boldness.

SB: The audacity. We're not even using, like, pseudonyms, like people are so wonderful to share their names. Okay, so like, maybe not this episode of the podcast, maybe a different episode, or maybe it's a matter of like, sharing a different article or interview or something else, and you can say like, "Hey, when we got together, you know, this situation occurred, and it reminded me of this piece of media. Um, I just wanted to share it with you and like, maybe you'd be down to talk about it." If, you know, you in fact would be open to having that conversation with them further. Um, yeah, and also like, if you're close enough for them to be able to say like, "Hey, you're looking happier," you can actually just be very factual about how happy you are or aren't, and like, the side effects of how that comes, like what that comes with, and the negative impact on you as well.

CP: I think those are great suggestions. Um, I guess one thing I could also mention is like, something I've found to be sort of useful in these moments where I'm like, I want to name this. I want--or rather, I want to acknowledge this, but I don't want to like, spend a lot of time discussing this or educating this, or like changing the vibe or like you mentioned Carly, like being worried about coming across as too sensitive or being a Debbie downer--I might just very explicitly say like, "Hey, you know, that's not what's going on." Or like, "Hey, no, you know, I don't respond well to comments like that." Or like, "Don't you know me? Why would you say that?" And just kind of like, a quick little like, and then keep it moving. Change the conversation, move along. Um, I think sometimes those can be helpful, other times they can't! But that's, I don't know, that's probably what I would have done in that situation.

SB: There are just so many variables. We've talked a bit about this, the math lady meme? (laughs)

CP: I love that one, "It doesn't add up!" (distressed noises)

SB: Who Cat thinks is Julia Roberts, but it's definitely--

CP: It's a Portuguese actress, I think? Yeah, yeah.

SB: Oh, I mean, okay. The other thing I think about this is, this is all about your wellbeing, so sometimes we just protect ourselves by not wading into that scary water of like, confrontations, or rocking the boat, and like, that's okay.

C: Yeah.

S: Also like, it's not--just because you are the person directly impacted it by it doesn't mean it's your full responsibility to educate people, or like, have this conversation. Like, who are the friends that you can have, who are the family members that you can tap on the shoulder and be like, "Hey, this is something that impacts me. If you notice this, would you mind speaking up?" Yeah, get a conspirator!

CP: That's a great suggestion.

SB: We love straight-sized friends calling out fatphobia, we're here for that. And it's a big ask, for sure. But like, if these are the people in your life that you want to keep around, maybe it's a good investment.

CP: Yeah, that's actually, I love the idea of finding a conspirator. Yeah, and I mean also Carly, like we should say: this sucks, and I'm sorry this happened, and this is no fun, um, and also, thank you for sharing this with us.

SB: Yeah.

CP: Next, we have the story from Christine about flying while fat.

SB: Uh, I mean truly relatable topic right there.

CP: Seriously. Perhaps not in the thick of 2020, but generally, yes. Oh so relatable.

Okay, so Christine says: "I was probably 25 at the time, and I was flying to Florida for a conference. I happened to be flying with another colleague who's also fat, and we were boarding the plane together. When I reached my row, I was talking to the colleague, and the woman sitting in the aisle seat had an audible reaction at the sight of the two of us.

(Ughhh noises)

“She was a thin white woman who was likely in her late fifties or sixties. She incorrectly assumed that we were both in that row, and that she would have to sit beside one of us. I think she said something like, "Oh, you've got to be kidding me." In actuality, I was the only one in that row, and would be sitting beside the window.

“I remember feeling such horror and shame. It was the first time that someone had ever had an audible reaction, at least in adulthood, at the thought of sharing space with me. I sort of mumbled that I was sorry, and just took my seat, cramming myself near the window as much as I could.

“She realized it was just me and did offer some sort of an apology. She had been on a trip and suddenly started having health problems, and was flying back to Florida for a medical procedure. What I remember most was going out of my way to be polite to this person who was so impolite to me. I wanted her to think of me as a good person. Ever since then I get a lot of anxiety if I have to fly beside someone I don't know. I'm always ready for them to shame me because of my wide hips. I don't know what I would've said if I could relive that moment; I've actually had predominantly uneventful experiences flying since then, but they never do anything to reduce my anxiety.

Oh, we're sorry that happened to you, Christine.

SB: And thank you so much for sharing that because like I said before, truly, truly relatable content,

CP: Honestly. Ugh, like, that part about being so polite to the lady even though she was rude to you, I just, the things we do to appease others in an effort to like, diffuse situations, or like keep people happy, I hate it so much--and also, I do it all the time.

SB: I mean yeah, I was thinking too, about how you shared--like the window seat situation? I do so much window clinging and like being a representative fatty when I'm on a plane. And I don't know how to make others be kind. It's kind of a realization I'm finding, you know, in 2020 that you just can't control that, and I don't think overcompensating kindness will make them treat me better, but I've definitely done that as well.

CP: I wonder, do you think it's sort of like, our Midwest upbringing that influences how we do this?

SB: Oh, probably, that's a really astute observation actually. Um, and I'm sure it has an impact on this. I, I also, like I wonder in this situation, how do we take that, uh, kind of predetermined skill of ours or cultural aspect to our behavior and weaponize it? Does that--

CP: Uh, say more?

SB: Okay. Yeah. Just stick with me. So like, uh, like weaponize the politeness. Like, as you sit down next to that person just say, like, "Are you okay? I heard you say something that I wouldn't normally expect to hear from a stranger, is there something I could do to help you? Or are you all right? What's going on?"

CP: Oooo. OOOOOO! I love that! Bold.

SB: Like it's also very confrontational, right? But like, you're already apologizing, you're already engaging in conversation with them. So like, why not be radically candid in that way? And like, you know, maybe it'll generate some dissonance for that person for them to be like, "Oh yeah, that was like, a really weird way for me to react." And also, she already apologized, so she knows.

CP: Yeah.

SB: And then clearly she was going through something and anxiety comes with flying generally, and then like, maybe you could even get to a point where you can disclose your own anxiety and be like, "Yeah, I'm actually really anxious as someone who has, like, really wide hips, or as someone who like, has to deal with a lot of fatphobia, flying generates a lot of anxiety," and just name that and see how that goes. But that's like, a best-case scenario. I don't know if you get to that point, but--

CP: I think that's like, a great thought experiment, or like a great, like--I don't know. That is a scenario I would really love to see play out.

SB: Mhmm, because what are they gonna say to that? I don't know.

CP: Yeah. I think that's a really cool option. For me, I guess I opt, when I fly, I opt for more of like a matter-of-fact approach to these scenarios. Like whatever's going on in my head, I think I try to come across as like, kind, but very unapologetic, like don't mess with me! (Both laugh)

Um, I'll also like--polite, I guess, but like, I definitely don't like, chit chat with people very much. Like, I just want to let them know like, Nope, I'm here to fly, I'm not here to talk to you or worry about you more than I have to, and that's all.

SB: That, that part! I didn't come to make friends on this flight, I came to win, and by win I mean get to my destination as comfortably as possible.

CP: Right.

SB: Um, it like reminds me of the Roxane Gay and Nicole Byer episode that we featured in our Podluck earlier this year, cause they did talk about flying while fat. And it's just great to hear other folks, uh, that they go through this, not that I want them to go through it, but like, thank you, Christine, again for sharing this because so many of us feel this. Add like, to your point, you've gone through a lot of uneventful experiences, but it doesn't matter. Like, that's not weighing as much on that scale of anxiety as that one situation, but like, maybe just knowing that you've got a whole group of people who are going through this could potentially alleviate some of that anxiety.

CP: Yeah. We are really all in this together, you know, and it really feels like that on a plane, too, and you're likte, okay, well, if we're going through this.

Um, I guess I just also want to like, continue to underpin this point of like, Christine, even though you said that everything has been pretty uneventful on other flights, like it's still, your anxiety still remains high. And I think that's so normal and natural, like we're always just on high alert, you know?

SB: Also, like, maybe it's the pre-work that we have to do of just like psyching ourselves up to fly when fat. I know I have to do that before going I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to make this as good of an experience for myself, regardless of the sad, stressed, miserable folks who are making poor decisions and reaping the rewards of that some way or the other, I hope."

Yeah, and you know, think about the people who do want to share space with you. You know, that one person who acts that way is not someone you want to engage with. You don't want them in your life. You're not going to have them in your life beyond this. So hold those who are important to you who do want to share that space in that community with you close to your heart, as you go into this.

CP: Yeah! Also, might I just say, how you just phrased that, Saraya, makes me think about like, the joy of being sat next to a random fat person when I'm on a flight? I love that so much, cuz it's like, "Okay, we know what, you know, like we're in this together, we're doing this!" Um, and just kinda carrying on.

SB: Oh, I love that. Is that somebody you would talk to on a plane?

CP: Yeah! If someone's fat--I mean, just generally in life, like if you're fat, I'm more likely to talk to you.

SB: We need a charter a jet after the pandemic's over, have a fabulous fat vacation situation.

CP: Wow, what a dream! Dream world.

SB: Very much a dream at this point.

CP: Yeah.

SB: Um, again, thank you, Christine. This is super helpful, but like what's up for us next? What's the next microaggression?

CP: Ooh! So, we have some fat dance teacher stories, but first a little ad break so we can tell you all about one of our favorites fat mutual aid programs!

[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]

CP: It's that time of year again! It's getting chilly, and everyone around here needs a warm winter coat.

SB: This can be especially tough for fat folks who don't have the means to get something warm that fits them properly to protect against the winter elements.

CP: That's why we're excited to tell you about the Super Coat Fund, a mutual aid program run by the Big Fat Super Swap that helps plus-size folks who are unable to afford winter coats.

SB: It was started because folks should never have to choose between things like food and medication versus staying safe from the cold. Coats for larger bodies are both expensive and hard to find.

CP: So in previous years, Big Fat Super Swap lead organizer, Hannah Clark--whoop whoop, Hannah's the best--has purchased and then coordinated delivery for all the coats. But because it's a pandemic, this year the folks selected will receive a stipend to pay for or help pay for a coat that they purchase themselves.

SB: Most of the funds generated for the Super Coat Fund are raised at Big Fat Super Swap events, which didn't happen as planned this year. So they're really looking to the community to help raise funds for folks who need coats.

CP: Yes! That's why we want to share this with you. Please consider sending a little or big something to the Super Coat Fund. We'll link their info in our shownotes. You can send funds via PayPal, which is the preference, and they also have some other ways to share.

SB: Also, if you, or someone you know in the Twin Cities, needs a warm plus-size winter coat, let them know about the Super Coat Fund. Applications are open now through November 8th. Please note that they prioritize larger-size coats, and Black, Indigenous and people of color recipients. And, while they try to serve as many people as possible, they cannot guarantee a coat to everyone who submits a form.

CP: But, the more funds they raise, the more coats they can give! So head over to bigfatsuperswap.org for more info, and to donate.

[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES OUT]

SB: We're back with a microaggression from Nikki.

Nikki shares: "I've been a dance teacher and professional choreographer for 20 years, and the microaggressions I get from every first-time student or actor is remarkable. The up and down look at meeting, the suspicion when I'm setting choreo, the tiny rage when it challenges them, their surprise at enjoying class, sharing their surprise with me as if it's a compliment—"

CP: Ugh!

SB: "—and I've been offered the compliment of 'brave' far more than I can count. It's just such a constant, I've adjusted my warmup and across-the-floor just to alpha and equalize the room. It's wild." This is wild.

CP: Wow! Nikki, ugh, so sorry. this happens--but yes, to fat dance instructors!

So, okay, I've taken a very large amount of dance fitness classes--never a true dance class, you know, but a lot of dance fitness classes--and I can still remember the first ever fat instructor I had. The year was--my God--2008? It was the LA Fitness in the Midway. I mean, this woman will forever have my heart!

SB: Oh, I love that. I love that so much. Why, why will she ever forever have your heart?

CP: I mean, it was just so great to see a fat person in, like, in a leadership role, in a class, like a fitness-focused class, you know? Um, yeah, and it's just like, especially, especially at that time, I was not seeing anyone who looked like me in fitness spaces.

SB: I guess this just has me so puzzled--not that I am denying your experience, Nikki, because this has been 20 years and you've had this constantly happening. I'm just astonished, like how did that person even get there in the first place? Because it's a dance class, they signed up for it. Like they know that they're there to dance, I'm sure they know people who have taken classes. And okay, I should say, as someone who has never really taken a dance class—I mean, after the age of five—

CP: —oh, cute—

SB: —Um, that video is curs-ed, I just will say tap dancing was not my forte. But I love the concept of all dance teachers like, alpha-ing out, 'cause like, you should show us, you should show us what we're mad at and how great you are and how wonderful you are, and what we can expect to be in awe of every time we come to class. And so that's straight-sized folks, that's everybody who's teaching, 'cause like, that is impressive. Show us newbies what's up and what we can expect.

And also, again, how did these people get there and not expect a dance class taught by an amazing competent teacher? It's just like very silly that you have to deal with this, and I'm so sorry you have to deal with it.

CP: I would revel in that like, "Ha! Proved ya wrong!" piece in all of this. But yes, oh my gosh, of course it must feel so incredibly annoying.

SB: I guess, like yes, revel in the "Haha, gotcha. I'm great at what I do," piece, but also like, my go-to is to play dumb--I don't know, maybe I need to like, dive into that with a therapist, but like, the brave thing really gets me. Like if somebody said, "Wow, you're so brave," my retort might be like, "Oh, like, what do you mean by brave? Do you mean, like, I should be brave for doing something I've done for 20 years, and I'm like really good at? Like, what's brave about that?" And like, like maybe offer them a little bit of the discomfort they've provided with that "compliment."

CP: Saraya, I love how you just, like, I don't know—how you said, like, play dumb or just like ask why. Like, you know, truly, like, "Oh, you're surprised you enjoy this, enjoyed this class? Like, why would you say that?" And then make them say it! I mean, cringe, and then cackle!

SB: Cackle, to really seal the deal.

CP:The real Saraya way of it all!

SB: But I also recognize that this is like, really hard, because you probably don't want your students to feel uncomfortable and foolish. But I will say they're already acting like that, in the beginning, and it sounds like you love what you do, and that probably comes through as well as like, a moment of inconvenience.

CP: I think it also just comes back to like, what you're hoping to accomplish? You know, like, capitalism is a thing, and so like, wooing customers is probably a thing. So I guess like, if you, I mean—so choose your response accordingly, you know, and that might just mean, like, a lot of, like, internal frustration.

SB: I also wonder—um, like, so Cat shared that story earlier about the—

CP: —My lil' LA fitness dance instructor?

SB: —Yeah! And I just wonder, like, maybe there are people who are reacting that way, but who knows how you're landing with them and just like, changing their experience of who can dance, who can't dance, and their perceived, um, biases or prejudices. But I wonder, Cat, your dance instructor, did you think she was brave?

CP: Oh, I guess, I don't know. I wouldn't--I think if I was gonna say something, it'd be like, more "unapologetic", you know? Um, but I guess what is that really? Like in this, you know, the Venn diagram of like, brave and unapologetic, I think there's probably some overlap, right? And so like, I don't know! Maybe like, 21-year-old me would've said brave instead of unapologetic. I don't really know, it's just like, you know, being in a larger body in that space is not, "Oh, wow. You're so brave." But like, showing up as a fat person in a fitness space feels very unapologetic to me in ways that feel really good.

SB: I really like that, like, I'm so primed to hear brave and think like, "Oh, you think I'm brave because I go through the world in a way that is unimaginable to you, and I assume, like, you also are disgusted by that." But there are people who will think it's brave because they want to be just as unapologetic, and I kind of love dissecting that emotional response for myself. Um, I don't know how that applies to you, Nikki, but thank you for kind of opening up this conversation about, what does it mean to be brave or what does it mean to be apologetic for ourselves?

CP: Thanks for, thanks for sharing, Nikki!

Next, we hear from Elizabeth about workplace microaggressions, and also a little side dish of a mom's misguided comments about her teen daughter.

SB: And a dance reference, uffda!

CP: We're keeping it going!

SB: We're gonna keep it going.

CP: Okay, so Elizabeth says: "I experience a lot of fatphobia and microaggressions at work. I work in a small department with five other femmes at a private arts college in Southern California. The absolute worst instance was a conversation that took place with my boss and a coworker about my boss's daughter.

I was in our shared office working, clearly without earbuds in, and within earshot--" uh, Elizabeth says, "Our office is tiny—my boss's 15 year old daughter has done ballet her entire life, but for several valid reasons has been wanting to quit. My boss was talking about how one of the things that her daughter looks forward to is having more free time to try other extracurriculars and especially spend time with her boyfriend." And then Elizabeth adds, "Oh, it's her first love who tragically goes to a different high school." Ohhh!

SB: Aww, that's really cute.

CP: So much action and intrigue in this one! Elizabeth goes on: "My boss made a comment about, 'Well, we'll see how long the boyfriend sticks around though, once she stops dancing and gains weight.' I just, I glanced over at her, but didn't know what to say. There is just so much wrong with a statement like this! I could go on and on, but this has been the most egregious comment so far." Uggggh!

SB: Woof.

CP: I mean, diet talk, body talk, a rampant problem plaguing almost every American workplace, but I feel like there's two main things to discuss here: generally, how to manage these type of conversations at work, and then specifically those gross comments and that conversation about the daughter.

So, I guess in terms of work tips, I have some ideas. I feel like this is something I've kind of thought a bit about and had to implement in my previous work life--not right now at Cake, but you know, like working at a college actually. So, part of it is just to like assess your goals, which I know I've said, like, in almost every scenario, but it's really like, what do you want to do? Is this just about self-preservation, or is this about education, or is there something else that, you know, something different you want to achieve?

Uh, what's been helpful for me is just like--one thing is to show people who you are. So, when it's appropriate to talk about things that relate to fat liberation or body positivity might be a little easier, is there something you can display in your cube that talks about like, how all bodies are worthy of respect? Or, you know, are there things that you can be doing to kind of tell the people around you, who you are? Not in these situations, but kind of before they happen, right?

Um, something else that has been effective for me is just to politely, or sometimes not so politely, excuse myself from conversations. And that really relates to boundaries, like, there have been work scenarios where I have just straight-up told people like, "Hey, I don't like to be around conversations about diets. Um, so like, if you're gonna talk about diets at lunch, like, I don't really want to have lunch with you." Um, and so then, if those kinds of conversations do come up in the future, then I just leave, and it's not a surprise 'cause I've told them that's the thing for me, you know?

So, I don't know. Saraya, what do you think about the mom-daughter thing? Cause on that one, I really have nothing.

SB: Well, I mean, first, I just want to name that, like, I love a power hierarchy concern, like your boss saying problematic stuff sounds like very easy to deal with, so--I'm being sarcastic, I'm so sorry.

CP: Yeah, that sucks.

SB: In this specific situation, Cat did a really good job of laying out, like, how can you set up groundwork for yourself to feel more comfortable should these situations come up, because they inevitably do? I guess in that specific instance, in the moment, I would have leaned heavily into like, the gossip piece of it, 'cause it does sound like it was slightly gossipy--maybe it wasn't. But um, you know, something like, "Oh my God, that would be awful if he does dump her because her body changes! Like at least, you know, at least she'll have one less fatphobic person in her life. And like, I'm sure that makes you feel really happy as her mother who just like, cares about her so much." And like, huge and cheery smile, and then just like walk away, right? Like that movie moment.

CP: I love that Saraya!

SB: Because you're kind of exposing, like, the ridiculousness of this person's comment and also setting a boundary for yourself about how you feel, how you're showing up in that space. But I'm also just a fat bitch chatting here, like it's very bold for me to just speak from my apartment in Minneapolis. I'm so far away from where this experience actually occurred, but thank you so much for sharing this, like, one of many microaggressions Elizabeth. Because like, we're there with you through the podcast and in fat spirit and solidarity.

CP: Thank you, Elizabeth! Your workplace sucks, and you're doing great.

SB: Our final scary tale of microaggression comes from Maria. Maria writes, "I was at a friend's cabin and her mom and stepdad took us out on the pontoon." I mean, okay, this is an aside, but very Midwestern, love a pontoon moment.

CP: Absolutely.

SB: "We were having a great time enjoying the summer day. I was drinking hard cider--AKA gluten-free since I have a severe gluten sensitivity--and my friend's mom asked me about why I was gluten-free. I explained all the health issues I had, and that they disappeared once I stopped eating gluten. She then said, 'Well, do you think you might also have diabetes?'"

CP: Uh!

SB: "I told her no, and that I was completely healthy. She works in healthcare, and so she got on her soap box about how digestive issues can accompany diabetes, and with my body type, I should get tested for it. I told her again that I was perfectly healthy now that I was off gluten, and then she finally stopped talking, but I was so shocked that I wish I had come up with a better comeback. She continued talking about healthy food the majority of the weekend."

CP: Ohhh, I would be so mad and frustrated! Like, you're stuck on a pontoon with these people, and you're at their cabin! Ugh, I mean like, thank you, Jane, for telling me exactly how you feel about me. We're both so sorry you had to experience that, and that you have to experience my cat meowing right now, in the background of this. My apologies.

SB: The cat has a lot to say. I guess the nameless Jane—Jane is no person in particular, I just—

CP: —Mom name—

SB: —Ma'am, I, yeah. I just, like, what a disappointing end to a lovely cabin and like, lake moment. I'm sorry.

CB: I mean, this bullshit sucks even more coming from a health professional who should know that you can't just diagnose someone by looking at them and like, based off of made-up stories in your head that you have about people!

SB: Yeah, I think it's most egregious, like, when we're comfortable and we feel like we're in a safe space and just get hit with that insidious fatphobia, especially when it's masked in concern--but like, clearly this person wasn't listening to you or caring about your well-being, 'cuz you were very clear with your situation.

And to Cat's point, the unprofessionalism of someone trying to diagnose on a pontoon without any consent or context? Like lady, please, let me enjoy my Crispin in peace!

CP: The audacity! Like you're basically showing me you're not good at your job right now.

SB: Oh my God. And I--okay. this is where I'm like throwing out ideas, I don't know if this would feel good for you or not, but I almost wonder if it's worth getting vulnerable and just like having a moment to share how most medical professionals will often stereotype or assume certain things based on your body size, when we are just like so far advanced with health at every size, and we know that fat isn't a predetermining factor for every illness out there, and just like, we're so glad that the developments of medical science and caring practitioners, um, exist, who can implement all of this. And like, that's a mouthful to have ready to go at a moment's notice, but it's just like playing on her, like status in healthcare and being like, "Oh, aren't you glad?" And like, trying to co-sign the fact that like her behavior is unconscionable in some way.

CP: Yeah, I wonder how something like that will go. Like, you know, saying, "Oh yeah, it's really interesting that you say that, 'cause like, honestly, it's been really frustrating ‘cause a lot of folks that I've interacted with in the medical field have been saying things like that when actually my numbers don't indicate that at all, and it's just like very confusing."

Um, I wonder if like, to your point Saraya, like being vulnerable like that could be fruitful.

SB: Yeah. I mean, this came up earlier, but like, I'm wondering what your friend had to say or not say about this.

CP: Hmm.

SB: Like, if it's cool to do a weekend hang at a cabin, maybe, like, you feel comfortable enough to divulge how that experience felt for you, and if your friend is in a place to do so, they could do a little parental educating as well, without you present. Um, it's also just absolutely ludicrous to think about how your friend has probably had to experience this or hear this type of language for more than just a weekend, so like, maybe they don't feel approachable, um, or maybe you don't feel, like, good about approaching them. Just knowing that there's like a lot of factors here, but my hope would be is that your friend would be up to supporting you and making you feel comfortable.

CP: Yeah, so many, so many things to consider. And then I also would add, like, I think what feels like an added nuance that I've been feeling in situations where I feel like I want to remind people that I'm healthy, I'm also feeling this pressure to not perpetuate the sort of "good fatty" sentiments. Like even if I'm not healthy, that doesn't give you the right to tell me--to be disrespectful to me or tell me anything differently. So, I don't think that's exactly what's going on here, but it does like come to mind with these type of situations.

SB: Mhmm. It's like, how far along the spectrum can I take someone who's being fatphobic and like, introduce them to a better way of life and a better way of thought. But also like, I'm just trying to vibe, man.

CP: Right. On the pontoon!

SB: I didn't know I'd have to defend my medical record and my humanity and hear about your personal issues this weekend. I just want to have a hard cider and enjoy the sunset, please.

CP: I just wanna pontoon in peace! Something occured--sorry, Vivi is being very loud. Um, something occurred to me, Saraya, that I hadn't--like now that we just went through all of these in order, we both have such, like, there's trends. Like you are very into the idea of like, "What would it look like if you were just a little more vulnerable here and like shared these things?" And you're also very into like, getting the friends and people around you. And I am just like, very like, "Nuh-uh! Nuh-uh, not happening! I'm leaving. I don't want to talk to you!" (Both laugh)

SB: Yeah, yeah.

CP: It's just such a trend, and I think it's funny, and I really, I really love your suggestions for these things and it is just so clear to me that we are both very different.

SB: But you also get to live your life based around being a fat activist, like that's everything, and if anybody knows a modicum of who you are, they would know that. So like your outrage, a lot of the time comes when people don't recognize that or do something that doesn't recognize just like how clearly you exist in the world.

CP: Yeah. I mean, you're right, and also I think that like, um--I am at my core, someone who believes like you win more bees with honey, you know? And I think that like, you're-- (Saraya laughs) you're, you know?

SB: Yeah.

CP: I think like, that can be part of the more vulnerable approach that you're suggesting. And I think that kind of vulnerability and conversation can lead to changing more hearts and minds and just like, me being like, "I'm leaving," you know?

SB: Yeah. It's also like, it takes a lot to be vulnerable. I don't know that it is as easy as I'm like positioning it to this.

It's also like, I just coach a lot. And so, so much of that is being vulnerable and like, facing what the actual issue is, putting it out there so that other people can--you can see other people's reactions, because you're not responsible for their reactions.

CP: Yeah. And I think that's part of it too. It's like, I think often people ask me like, "Well, what could I do?" Or like these things come up a lot, it feels like, especially with like, my confidence course. And I think I sometimes shy away from the more, like, from the things that you've been suggesting, 'cause I just worry that like, it's just like too much for people, and I think that they like want more self-preservation.

But like, to your point, it's like, if you are in a relationships with people that are doing these things, like, the long, the long game is gonna really benefit if you open up to them, you know?

SB: Yeah. But there is that worry about recourse and like self preservation. It's just such a spectrum, and I don't know, dude.

CP: Yeah, it's so much. And also, I just love that I'm doing this project with you, and I love that we have--you know what I mean? Like this is very fun that we both have very specific but different ideas about how to respond to these things. Like, I think it's helpful.

SB: I also love how I'm saying they're vulnerable, it's like being vulnerable and like opening it up, but I'm also just being petty as hell. So like, it's a fine line to walk.

CP: You're not lying!

SB: I know, I know. Yeah, I don't know that I'm catching many bees with any of these—

CP: I guess also actually, no, but now that I guess, I just there's so much to this because like, yeah, in like some of these scenarios and I'm just like, "Oh, make a statement, keep it movin'!" that like, really does keep the peace. Whereas like, if you're like pouring your heart out to someone, you know what I mean? Like that does not keep the peace like that like, stirs shit up, you know, which like, can feel really good and like, um, validating, and like “Ha ha!”, you know, but also, yes. I guess I'm going on and on to say, wow there's so many ways to do these things, and it's just like helpful to be, to be able to share different perspectives.

[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]

SB: Welcome to the end of the minisode, everyone. We waded into these microaggressions and came out the other side—well, at least in regards to the podcast. Microaggressions will continue to persist, and I'm sure y’all have had similar experiences.

CP: Yeah. Please feel free to hop onto this episodes post on our Instagram and share your own experiences or general pro tips for dealing with fat microaggressions.

SB: Also, please feel free to slide into those podcasts reviews! We appreciate the subscriptions, and will definitely shout out a review on our socials.

CP: For those rad fat show notes, transcripts, and additional episodes, make sure you visit www.matteroffatpod.com.

SB: Last, but not least a very special thanks to Maria, Nikki, Elizabeth, Christine, and Carly, who so wonderfully shared their lives with us and with you. We appreciate y'all so, so much.

CP: Tune in next time for another episode of—

CP+SB: —matter of fat.

[TRANSITION MUSIC FADES IN, FADES OUT]

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