S2E12 Transcript
Season 2 Episode 12:
Sonalee Rashatwar
Release Date: November 20, 2019
For complete episode info, visit this page!
[INTRO MUSIC]
Cat Polivoda: Welcome to Matter of Fat, a body positive podcast with Midwest sensibilities! Hi, I'm Cat Polivoda--a local fat feminist, shop owner, and a bronchitis-battlin' babe. I'm joined by my cohost and producer, Saraya Boghani.
Saraya Boghani: Hi, I'm Saraya. I'm a fat, multiracial Minneapolitan millennial jetsetter.
Cat Polivoda: Yes! On Matter of Fat, we're here to talk about the cultural politics of fat bodies in Minneapolis, St. Paul, and the greater Midwest.
Saraya Boghani: This episode of Matter of Fat is brought to you by Superfit Hero.
Cat Polivoda: Yes! We're so excited to have Superfit Hero as a Matter of Fat sponsor, because we know that Superfit Hero is such a fave with so many of you. This woman-owned brand is on a mission to make fitness more inclusive with premium activewear in sizes extra small to 5XL. Our listeners can use code FAT to save 15% off Superfit Hero's leggings--with pockets!--shorts, and sports bras. Visit superfithero.com to see their full selection and to use our code, FAT.
Saraya Boghani: We tried out the Superfits and can't wait to tell you what we think about them in the Fat Dish.
Cat Polivoda: Ooh, and it's about time to head into that fab, fat, newsworthy dish.
Saraya Boghani: It's been forever, let's do it. It's...
Cat and Saraya: The Fat Dish!
[TRANSITION MUSIC]
Cat Polivoda: It's time for The Fat Dish, where we share--or dish--about what's going on in our community and personally. Like you heard in our last ep, we're looking forward to Take it Off, a fat burlesque review put on by my shop, Cake Plus Size Resale, and the Rose Academy of Burlesque, which is owned by Diva Rose, who was on the pod earlier this season.
Saraya Boghani: Love a good burlesque show, love a fat burlesque show.
Cat Polivoda: Yeah, and this one is exclusively fat performers, which is pretty rare. It's such a great group, including several fat burlesquers of note, from all over the country. It's taking place on Saturday, November 23rd at the Pourhouse Downtown. Tickets are available on their website, which is pourhousempls.com. Matter of Fat is excited to be a sponsor of this event, and we look forward to seeing you there!
Saraya Boghani: Another piece for this episode's dish is about Small Business Saturday! So it's coming up really quick; it's the immediate Saturday after Thanksgiving, and falls on November 30th this year. So, what a great way to support the many businesses in your community and share the love with friends and family. And Cat, I imagine Cake will be doing something for SPS. Give the people the deetz.
Cat Polivoda: Oh yeah! So we've got sales, and cake pops, and giveaways, and the best part is that we donate 20% of our Small Business Saturday sales to buy coats for folks in need, through The Super Coat Fund.
Saraya Boghani: That's really lovely. How did the idea come about?
Cat Polivoda: Oh, we've just been doing it for the last three years. I think it's because we have such amazing customers who are cool with no storewide sale, but instead, make it possible for us to donate that portion that we maybe would have in a sale. It's one of the busiest days of the year, and so we can share that money with folks in need.
Saraya Boghani: Okay, but what is The Super Coat Fund, cause I've seen a lot about it on social, but tell me more.
Cat Polivoda: Yeah! So The Super Coat Fund is this project coordinated by Hannah from the Big Fat Super Swap, through donations that are generated mainly through the Big Fat Super Swaps, Cake, and some individual donors. The Super Coat Fund buys new coats for plus-sized folks in need. So if you want to find out more about this or if you want to request a coat, or if you'd like to donate, visit the Big Fat Super Swaps' Facebook or Instagram to find the posts about The Super Coat Fund.
Saraya Boghani: Very timely because, brrr...
Cat Polivoda: Right!
Saraya Boghani: Yeah. Also, Real Life Coffee and Yoga is celebrating their first Small Business Saturday! We're gonna start a thread in our friends and fans Facebook group to list all the best local small businesses folks will be supporting that day (Cat: Awesome), I can't wait to see what people post.
Cat Polivoda: Same same same.
Saraya Boghani: All right, Cat Daddy - dad--
Cat Polivoda: ...what? (laughs)
Saraya Boghani: Okay, I tried it, and I hated it. Cat Daddy. It's not...I don't think it's gonna take off.
Cat Polivoda: No...nope…
Saraya Boghani: Cat! What else is on the Fat Dish docket today?
Cat Polivoda: Okay, we need to share more about our Season Two finale celebration!
Saraya Boghani: Y'all were asking, so we delivered.
Cat Polivoda: Last year, we loved our end-of-season celebration. We saw so many of you there, and this year we're happy to do another celebration, but a little more chill this time.
Saraya Boghani: Yeah. We're celebrating the end of our second season with a little get-together at La Doña Cervecería, you know we're there all the time (Cat: all the time). It's very low-key. It's just a chance to mix and mingle with us, other Matter of Fat listeners, friends, and maybe even some past guests.
Cat Polivoda: Yes. Plus our fave, Que Tal Street Eats, will be there serving up delicious pupusas and other great eats. So y'all should stop by between 3:00 and 6:00 PM., Sunday, December 1st.
Saraya Boghani: Hope you join us, we'd love to see you there.
Cat Polivoda: Oh, I'm really looking forward to this! Saraya, it's been so long since we've had a proper catch-up during the Fat Dish, I cannot wait to hear what's been going on with you.
Saraya Boghani: Ain't that the truth? I think we'll have to catch up after a break from our sponsor...
[TRANSITION MUSIC]
Saraya Boghani: This episode of Matter of Fat is brought to you by Superfit Hero. As Cat mentioned earlier, Superfit Hero is a woman-founded and run business. We at Matter of Fat are excited to talk about an organization with a mission to make fitness more inclusive by creating athletic wear in sizes 0 to 30.
Cat Polivoda: Yes for that size range!
Saraya Boghani: Yes! It's a big deal, since we know that people want to feel comfortable and have access to well-crafted clothing. So we tried the SuperFit pocket capris, and the sport crop bra, so we could share our feedback.
Cat Polivoda: And, we got the exact same Superfits, same color sports bra, same color capris--
Saraya Boghani: We had to do it to 'em, matching everything.
Cat Polivoda: We had to, and honestly, we've matched before. So it's not that weird. (both laugh)
Saraya Boghani: We've matched before. This was a new iteration of that. Personally, I've had lots of leggings and sports bras before--none of them matching my friends--but I will say that some of them fall into regular rotation and others sit in the drawer for like, way too long (Cat: Same). It really comes down to the details for me. So I haven't worn a capri pant in a minute, but I felt so supported and comfortable in it. The fabric was thick and you couldn't see through it, which honestly, I'm out here trying to live my life; I'm not trying to put on a show for anybody. The fabric wasn't rough or slippery. It was more soft and strong, and I really dug--okay, so the waistband was wider than most others I've tried, which is good because I like to really pull it up there (Cat: same same same), high-waist game, and this allowed for that. I also wasn't worried that it would fall down while walking around or even doing yoga and, okay, let's talk about this sport crop bra. It felt like a crop top!
Cat Polivoda: Truly!
Saraya Boghani: The band was snug and I was fully covered the whole time. I felt like I could just wear it out and about, or under some other layers. And for all my people out there who've had to layer bras to feel more secure, like nothing was gonna pop, I personally didn't need to do it with this crop.
Also, I felt comfortable enough to rock the SuperFit without an additional shirt or tank, which lent itself to some great big belly energy (Cat: Yes yes!) ) which is awesome, and something that I'm new to. I'm not always comfortable doing that. So that was exciting. Cat, what did you think about the Superfit?
Cat Polivoda: I really liked it and I'm really impressed with Superfit Hero. So, you know I love an athleisure look, or as I sometimes call it, FAT-leisure...
Saraya Boghani: Excellent.
Cat Polivoda: The pieces we tried were great for working out or everyday wear, especially the bra which you mentioned is, like...it can be styled as a crop in a really cute way. I loved how the leggings felt sturdy and like a very nice quality, but still soft and comfy, not see-through. And it's nice to have leggings with pockets. I'm here for that.
Saraya Boghani: I shoved my hands in the pockets, like they're perfect hand size. They also held my phone really well and very securely.
Cat Polivoda: I felt like the leggings were really true-to-size too, when compared to other leggings that I wear. I find myself often between a 2x and a 3x in basically every legging--the sizes of every leggings I wear, ever, and the same was true here. So I tried the Capri legging in a 2X and also a 3X. And while both were very comfortable, the two was a little snugger than I like, and the three was a little roomier. So boo for me being between sizes, but yay for the sizes being so consistent. I think you'll know exactly what to expect, and they--of course--have a really helpful size chart on their website.
Okay, I also need to share that I really love that Superfit Hero is showcasing people of all body sizes on their Instagram and in their marketing. (Saraya: Totally.) They're actively showing people in larger bodies, their mission and values are present in their marketing, and, that's something I always want to see from brands. Plus I know so many of you who stan for Superfit Hero, so it was really fun to be able to try out some of these pieces for myself.
Saraya Boghani: And now our listeners can save 15% with code "FAT". We got it for y'all, F-A-T. Visit SuperfitHero.com to see their full selection and use our code "FAT".
[TRANSITION MUSIC]
Cat Polivoda: Okay, now dish! What's going on with you, Saraya?
Saraya Boghani: So I recently got back from about a week-long trip to New York City!
Cat Polivoda: Oh my gosh! L.A., New York. You are just jetsetting!
Saraya Boghani: Who IS she? So I stayed with the greatest friends ever in Astoria, which is in Queens, and had easy access to wander around the city and explore museums, shops, parks, food--and caught a bunch of shows for the New York City Comedy Festival.
Cat Polivoda: What a cool time to be there!
Saraya Boghani: It was beautiful. It was fall in New York. The trees were gorgeous. Wandering around Central Park. Just being able to walk around and it was the perfect temperature. It's like 70 degrees the first day there, and then quickly went to 60, 50, like a trench coat weather.
Cat Polivoda: Oh my gosh, jealous.
Saraya Boghani: And I really loved catching up with friends of the pod, Anna and Lothy. So I got to see them, I got to hang out with their adorable little dog Franklin. I'm his aunt now--
Cat Polivoda: He was on their holiday card a couple of years ago.
Saraya Boghani: --as he should be. He is a model, a little shitzu. And then I got to see some comedians that I've loved from afar for a very long time, and to be seeing them IRL was very special. I saw Aparna Nancherla. Joe Firestone, Maeve Higgins, Jaboukie Young-White, and found some others that I'm really excited to see them come up and see what they have to do next.
Cat Polivoda: I feel like I've seen these people too, ‘cause of your Instagram stories. You were really doing it for us. You were really--for your 12 followers, you were do! ing! it!
Saraya Boghani: 13! (Cat laughs) 13 followers. I am certified bad at social media. I say it on Twitter. I mean it here. I ldon't have a wide following because I don't accept--
Cat Polivoda: You don't want a wide following!
Saraya Boghani: Well, if I don't know you, I don't follow you and that's no shade. I'm sure you have lovely things and I only ever post stories to appease Cat to stop making fun of me.
Cat Polivoda: Well esp ecially when you travel, we want to see what you're up to.
Saraya Boghani: Yeah, so there was a concerted effort there for the stories and I think it came out--
Cat Polivoda: It was very well done, very well done (Saraya: thank you). I recognize some of these folks from the stories that you shared and you tagged them.
Saraya Boghani: You probably also recognize Hari Kondabolu. Do you remember when we saw him at the Cedar, like two-ish years ago?
Cat Polivoda: Oh, it was so great.
Saraya Boghani: He was so great. He is one of my favorites, and I got to see his comedy set one night, and then I got to go see an interview between him and Lindy West, which was amazing! So her book, The Witches are Coming, released that week. So the next day she had--we were in Chelsea...no, I don't know where we were. It doesn't matter. (Cat: Somewhere in New York) We were somewhere in New York, I just showed up where I needed to be, and we got to see them in conversation. They've been friends forever, which I didn't realize. I don't know what it is about Seattle, but it was popping up. A lot of good people--
Cat Polivoda: Well didn't she, like mention him in Shrill, like, "Oh yeah, that guy."
Saraya Boghani: Did she?
Cat Polivoda: Yeah, I'm pretty sure she mentioned him by name in Shrill, and I was like, “the connections, the webs we weave…”
Saraya Boghani: Oh, like in the book, in the book, yeah yeah. (Cat: Not in the series) That makes sense. I was like, “I've seen and read it so many times. It's all just my life now.” But it was so much fun to see them, and we just kept the good times rolling because you and I, Cat, went to see Lindy at the Fitz!
Cat Polivoda: Yes, this week!
Saraya Boghani: It was so much fun. It was the "Talking Volume" set-up, and it was really nice to see a pivot from what that conversation with her and Hari was. They really set it up to do banter, and a little bit of a reading, and some music. And honestly, it just comes back to...lIke audiobooks. (Cat: Yeah.) I don't know. I don't think you expected this to happen, where I pivot back to audiobooks. It's usually... (Cat giggling) but listening to The Witches are Coming--
Cat Polivoda: Cause we both listened to the audiobook version of The Witches are Coming, cuz Lindy reads it!
Saraya Boghani: Her writing is so much her voice, right? You can read it and you get it--it's hilarious, it's clear and funny and irreverent--but then you listen to it and it just comes through on another level. Yeah. So there's a lot of Lindy in my life, a lot of New York. That's kind of what's going on. But what's new and poppin' with you?
Cat Polivoda: I mean, besides being sick for the longest amount of time in my adult life, not a whole lot! (Saraya: Oh, no, oh baby!) No, actually, a lot's been going on and I am feeling much better. Like, wow, it's, I'm on--I'm on the road to recovery. I'm a little bit of a wimp, but I really have been sick for kind of a long time.
Um, okay. Big things in my world. A few weeks ago, I went to an event called Pitchfest put on by this group called The Power of 100 MSP. So the idea is that a hundred people give $100 each, and then the nonprofit who makes the most compelling pitch gets $10,000.
Saraya Boghani: Okay, so I'm gonna make a very bad connection to it. (Cat: Do it.) This seems like a worthwhile version of Shark Tank to me. (Cat: Oh yeah!) I loathe Shark Tank and have watched, like, too many episodes of it, so this sounds amazing.
Cat Polivoda: It was awesome! Friend of the pod, Andrea Santo, came with me. She was an excellent date. (Saraya: I bet.) There were yummy eats, there were super sweet folks there, there were great pitches from three amazing nonprofits, and Cake was a sponsor, so it was like a little added excitement for me.
Saraya Boghani: Oh, that sounds amazing. Like a perfect evening. Which organization has the best pitch?
Cat Polivoda: Okay, so all three that were represented were great. They were Voices for Racial Justice, Family Tree Clinic, and Women for Political Change. So they were all really good. I mean, I always stan for Family Tree Clinic especially, because of their bold statements around Health at Every Size. But the winner for this event was actually who I voted for as well, and it was Women for Political Change. They're amazing! They're an organization of women and those from historically marginalized gender identities, so lots of young women and college women and people in their early twenties. They're doing incredible work, holistically investing in the leadership and political power of young women and trans and non-binary individuals throughout Minnesota. I'm just so happy to know about this amazing organization and excited to support them in the future!
Saraya Boghani: 100%, that is amazing! I would never have known about them and now we can link them out so our listeners can know about them too.
Cat Polivoda: Yes! Okay. Something else that I feel like I have to share: I'm feeling more festive than usual this holiday season!
Saraya Boghani: No Grinch status for you?
Cat Polivoda: No, zero Grinch status! Okay. I think it's cause Sydney, my assistant manager at Cake, is obsessed with Christmas, and also non-religious holiday joy. I think it's wearing off on me! Since the shop opened, I've been really into the holiday shopping kind of spirit. We always have a big Small Business Saturday thing like we discussed, and I joke that Small Business Saturday #IsMySuperbowl, like "I prepared all year for this." This year we're also doing a fun holiday market at the shop, but something about this time of year, I'm just feeling really fun and in the spirit of the season.
Saraya Boghani: That's exciting! So I have to ask a clarifying question that many of our listeners want to know: does your Small Business Saturday include puppies, a la The Puppy Bowl?
Cat Polivoda: I have no idea what the Puppy Bowl is.
Saraya Boghani: You don't know what the Puppy Bowl is?! Okay. I wouldn't expect there to be a puppy bowl at Small Business Saturday--
Cat Polivoda: --well since it’s #IsMySuperbowl--
Saraya Boghani: --hashtag, this is NOT my Superbowl (Cat laughs) because MY Superbowl includes a room full of puppies duking it out for an award. I don't actually know. I think I just tune in occasionally and they're just puppies running around.
Cat Polivoda: Unfortunately, no puppies at Cake on Small Business Saturday, but there'll be me, going hard.
Saraya Boghani: Okay, fair enough.
Cat Polivoda: Oh, okay. One more thing I think I should mention in our updates actually is a little bit of a joint update, which is: one of the bigger things that happened recently was that that TPT piece I was featured in came out! So it was a TPT original focusing on my work with Cake and our work here on Matter of Fat. I was pleased--so it came out, it's about eight minutes long, which is so amazing. Matter of Fat got a lot of screen time, which I thought was so fun. You were in it so much Saraya!
Saraya Boghani: Too much!
Cat Polivoda: No, not too much. Never too much.
Saraya Boghani: I was very surprised. I was like, when is it gonna pan away? When is it...when is it gonna go away from me? (Cat: I loved it.) Yeah, cause the crew joined us in the KFAI station and it was really great, but also very meta, because we'll take the odd photo every now and then maybe a quick Facebook live, right? But I became so conscientious of what I look like while I'm recording instead of just considering the sound and...I don't know. It doesn't matter. I didn't need to say that, but it was really fun and nice way to consider what we do on the podcast and it was just really well put together.
Cat Polivoda: It was so well put together. Diana, who produced it, did such an amazing job. We will also link that in our show notes in case you haven't seen it already, so you can check it out! And you know, with that, I think that's all we've got for today's Fat Dish.
Saraya Boghani: Yeah, let's dive into the interview!
[TRANSITION MUSIC]
Cat Polivoda: We are so, so, so, so excited to share our interview with Sonalee Rashatwar. We spent time with Sonalee this summer when they did a workshop at Cake.
Saraya Boghani: I had been following them on social media for a long time and absolutely love the way they frame their thoughts around liberation. So when I heard that they'd be in Minnesota, I was so excited to attend their workshop and learn more. We actually got to interview Sonalee right after the talk, and you might notice there's a little bit difference in the usual sound quality. You might overhear some planes, trains, automobiles--well, maybe not all of that, but there's definitely some ambient sound.
Cat Polivoda: The bulk of our conversation with Sonali consisted of us basically gushing about the mind blowing themes in their talk. They describe concepts with such wisdom and also in a really accessible way, like this mix of wiseness with accessibility. We feel so lucky to be able to share some of their amazingness with you in this interview.
Saraya Boghani: It was such a pleasure to learn a bit more about their background and story as a Matter of Fat. Instead of trying to capture the magic of their words, let's just get into it.
Cat Polivoda: Yeah!
[TRANSITION MUSIC]
Cat Polivoda: Sonalee, we're so happy you're here with us. We were just at your event and it was fantastic. We want to ask you what we ask all of our guests on our podcast, which is: tell us your story, as a matter of fat.
Sonalee Rashatwar: First, I would love to thank you, Cat, for hosting this workshop with me--featuring me--tonight. (All laugh) I felt deeply honored and grateful by the way that the audience received what I experienced and how I connect my lived experiences to the theoretical frameworks of ableism and anti-capitalism and fatphobia. That's what's so valuable when we are looking for scholars, and we're looking for thought leaders and activists, is we're looking for individuals who connect their lived experiences to those theoretical frameworks.
My story from a matter of fat lens begins around the ages of like eight, nine, and 10: being put on nonconsensual diets by my parents, and experiencing what was this, like, all-encompassing environment of food surveillance that followed me throughout the year. I think of...when me and my siblings were kids, after Halloween, our hard-earned candy--our pillows, pillowcases full of candy--were confiscated, and often they were hidden somewhere in the home.
I am the eldest child of three, and so I'm the creative problem solver, I'm the natural leader. I'm the one who's like, "Oh, you're gonna put a passcode on the internet access? I'm gonna figure out that fucking passcode. And so every year after Halloween, I would find the Halloween candy. I would find out where they were hidden, and my sister was deputized into diet culture to rat on me. She was like, this food police that would be expected to tell my parents, "She found it." She was convinced that she was doing me a favor. My parents had convinced her that I was self-harming by eating. What's so sad--and I'm getting emotional because--that is just the nature of fat trauma and body image trauma. And what I call body image abuse is that for me, there was this pervasive conversation of (pause) "I'm harming myself by taking care of myself." I'm harming myself by compensating for the food that I wasn't receiving. I taught a workshop this afternoon at St. Olaf where I talked about memories that came flooding back to me, because what's so difficult in doing this work of teaching your oppression is that you're like, "Oh fuck, I forgot about this thing that really ties to this shit." This memory of having to run stairs came back to me: before I was welcome to the table, before it was time to eat, I was expected to run up to up to the second floor and come back down, run down to the basement and come back up through the basement, and run back up the second floor; I was expected to do a certain number of those before my food was earned, and those were not things that my younger siblings were doing.
I think about how gender has so much to do with it, because my younger brother is four years younger than me ,and we look like fucking twins, but the type of scrutiny that my body received was nothing--I mean, actually it was everything compared to what my brother received, which was nothing. (Cat: Yeah.) All of that had to do with gender, because...at least within South Asian family systems--’cause I'll speak from experience--the way that my body was expected to be controlled was decided mostly by my gender. My brother was not told the same lessons about sex, or food consumption, or being worried about how people were going to treat him based on skin tone or body size or body hair. My brother was never receiving those messages, and it was entirely because of my gender and my body size. (pause) So my matter of fat story has entirely to do with growing up fat, the decisions that I made to resist my parents' indoctrination of me into diet culture, and the decision to stay fat. I even almost had weight loss surgery, which is a personal decision for me not to have done that, and I feel really good about actually not having done that. But it's, of course, never an indictment against others who had it, but I call it a stomach amputation was what I almost had. I call it an amputation really intentionally because we forget that we are cutting out actually super healthy tissue from our body, willingly.
When I almost had weight loss surgery, it was...seven years ago, when I was like still being
convinced by my parents that conforming to societal standards could benefit me. I was being promised these great things, like a sports car, and I'm just being promised like, "Oh, we'll put you through grad school, and we'll get you all the plastic surgery that you could want because of all the excess skin you're going to have.You're going to look fantastic." I was promised all of these dreams, but what it also told me was that my body was conditionally valued and conditionally loved. I would never have realized that, had I not had queer fat community around me to tell me that, "if your parents are so obsessed with me being married to a man, and that wouldn't be possible if I were fat, then it's okay to be like, ‘So what?’” So what if I don't marry a man? So what if I stay fat? So what if I am partnered with somebody else of a different gender? My life--my world's not gonna end. I might disappoint my parents, but my world's not going to end by disappointing them. I get to live a life for me outside of that. (Cat: Yes!)
Saraya Boghani: So appreciate the story you just told, even relating to talking about the memories of running stairs and then getting access to food, and it's the same way; you didn't get access to the love or acceptance until you were willing to do and go through these different hoops and things like that. Oh gosh. It just is so cyclical in that way too.
Sonalee Rashatwar: And it's so sad. (Cat and Saraya: Yeah.) My sister, who's so close to me--we're super close--it took us a long time to unlearn that cops-and-robbers dynamic that we had where she would rat on me, and I was like, "Oh no, I'm in trouble again!" (laughs) We're so close, we're like white on rice, so close. I love her so much. She was one of the few individuals who was also able to question the impulse to go ahead forward and have stomach amputation surgery. She was one of the few, because--in order to have weight loss surgery, they have these seminars. A hospital will have a surgeon and a panel of individuals who present information for potential surgery-havers. They'll rent out this large conference room and there won't be any food there--which I think is so interesting--and they educate these mass groups of people to see who will funnel through and continue forward with treatment. What happens in those spaces is that they often encourage families to come, so like a whole family will receive this education.
What was really good about my whole family going to that was that my sister saw--I want to say it was in the presentation itself, but it might not have been--but regardless, my sister was the only one in my family who was concerned with the fact that 1 in 200 people die on the table having that surgery. Which is an astronomical number. 1 in 200! If 1 in 200 people died from having heart surgery, they would stop fucking doing heart surgery! (All laugh) But we're still doing GI amputations because of fatphobia.
Cat Polivoda: Yeah. It sounds very indoctrination-y, right? Being in that space and to have a crumb of like, "Oh no, let's shake you back to reality here."
Sonalee Rashatwar: She was the only one who was like, "I'd rather have you alive and fat than dead and thin." She was the only one in my family who said that. And it hurts because like...my mom will never stop fucking dieting. She's on a new fucking fad diet. And you know she can't stop talking about it, ‘cause she's experiencing some weight loss, and there'll be something new six months from now. And those are conversations I just can't have with my mom, I'm learning.
Saraya Boghani: The learning piece is so key from, I mean, even what you just shared earlier tonight. I really loved the imagery you said about plucking that from your brain and replacing or replanting something else. I've talked about this with Cat quite a bit, and lots of other identities and pieces like that, but nothing that graphic has ever made sense to me. I'm just curious, you said this has been happening for the last seven years, years before that. What are some things like recently for you that you've been plucking out and replanting?
Sonalee Rashatwar: Mm. I know something that I'm still working on now is this way that I've associated physical movement with punishment. (Cat and Saraya: Hmmm.) So when I talk about the running stairs, I've had a really hard time thinking about physical movement as something that's joyful, and something that I can access now. I know that the way that I'm still rooting through my internalized fatphobia is the way that I exclude myself from public spaces and erase myself in public spaces. I do fear judgment, and I do still fear the way people film and photograph my body in public spaces, which I experienced disproportionately in places like India and Nepal.
So a couple of years ago--three years ago, I was in India and Nepal with my family. In India, we were there for my friend's wedding, and in Nepal we were like touring, just as tourists. The number of individuals that would point and laugh at my body, take out their cameras and film my body as if I didn't have eyes and couldn't see them. Children would follow me and chase me, as if I was like an animal or something. And what was even worse, even worse than the experience itself of experiencing overt fatphobia, is this like invisibility of it.
My family was with me everywhere that these things happened--in the airport, at tourist spots--and never did they acknowledge or protect me or shield me or say like, “I see that shit and it was wrong.” Or like, "come stand over here next to me." Like, "some people are taking your photo and that's inappropriate. I'm going to block you." Never was that shit happening. (Cat sighs) Right? There's like this aloneness in the experience.
So I do exclude myself from gyms, even though I deeply want to experience joyful movement. I love a fucking fitness class! I've always been like a lifter, and I've always been personal training, and I love feeling strong, and I feel like I can't access spaces that feel like mainstream fitness spaces. I was recently at a restaurant where someone told me about this class that mixes SoulCycle and kickboxing and it's in the dark. (Cat and Saraya: Oh!) And I was like, "Oh yeah, I think I can fuck with that.” Because it's like a class and it's like dance-y and there's kickboxing elements and there's loud dance music, and you're in the fucking dark. So that might be one of my entry points back into joyful movement.
Saraya Boghani: That's awesome.
Sonalee Rashatwar: The class is called Rumble, in Philly, or the gym is called Rumble.
Cat Polivoda: It feels like disruptive, you know?
Sonalee Rashatwar: Yeah! I'm excited about that.
Cat Polivoda: During your talk, there's--many things that you said that really have me thinking. One of them was the idea--you use science fiction to get into it, and mentioned how we need to imagine a world free of fatphobia and other systems of oppression, like we have to imagine it in order to get there. And just the way you were speaking about it it's, for me, akin to goal-setting. Actually you made that parallel too, right? If you can visualize yourself doing something, you're more likely to get it done. I use that all the time for myself, and I encourage other people to do it in terms of goals, and also if you're going on an interview or going on a first date. In addition to kind of giving you, or while you're giving yourself a little pep talk, imagine it going well, right? ‘Cause we always assume the worst, but if you can imagine being in that interview, being your best, that's just a very effective tool. I've never made that connection to think about it big-picture with the world, and how we can imagine a world free of oppression. It really struck me and I was wondering like--eff, I've done a terrible job here of paraphrasing all this--but could you just share a little bit about that so our listeners could have a grasp of this powerful way to view things?
Sonalee Rashatwar: Also, it was not a terrible description at all. (Cat laughing) It was actually perfect and amazing. (Sonalee laughs) (Cat: Well thank you!)
So in my workshops, I often use a disclaimer in order to allow folks the possibility of experiencing discomfort because we talk about up-ending really difficult concepts; remembering that white supremacy is planted deep within us, fatphobia is planted deep within us, anti-blackness is planted deep within us, and we're always unlearning and picking through the ways that we're actually still mired within those constructs. I use that disclaimer, that quote by Walidah Imarisha who is a science fiction author, who's a rad black author of science fiction. A lot of those ideas come from grassroots organizing movements. As a grassroots organizer, I imagine that when me and my collective activists are working together to envision a different future, that in itself is an act of radical imagining. We are radically imagining together, we are dreaming together what a future would look like. The reason that I frame it as that is because I want us to expand what our imaginaries can encompass as liberatory frameworks, and I want us to expand and offer ourselves possibility models that we've never possibly considered before today--
Cat Polivoda: It's mind blowing! This is mindblowing. (All laugh)
Saraya Boghani: Yes, actually mind blowing, like the bounds of my mind, they have to expand to include this, and throwing out the frameworks that already exist is so powerful and so invigorating, especially talking about accessibility. You're talking about even like, reading people's works. It doesn't have to be that dense technological language to be able to have these conversations and engage with it--
Sonalee Rashatwar: It shouldn't be, actually, because it's not accessible. (Saraya: Right, exactly.) When academia or when institutions do that, it's a way of gatekeeping who gets access to that knowledge and information. But grassroots organizers are always interested in making these conversations applicable to folks who are of working class backgrounds, who are on the ground experiencing oppression. And words have power. Words have so much meaning. It is amazing to me as a facilitator and a radical educator to be standing at the front of the room and seeing the way people's eyes open up when I offer them language to describe experiences that they've had. To say the word "nonconsensual diet" and to see someone, it's like you can see the light bulb behind someone's eyes. What they're offering themselves is a narrative that helps to describe, "Oh shit, what I've survived was also abusive, and what I've survived is also fat trauma, and I don't have to be fat in order to experience fatphobia or fat trauma." We are all surviving and unlearning that shit together.
Cat Polivoda: Yeah. Yeah, this is just awesome. Kind of related like what you referenced before, Saraya, what you referenced from the talk about plucking stories out and replacing them with different things. Again, I've used that on a very personal level, and I found it really effective to be like, "Okay, well, what story am I telling myself?" Like, "okay, let's rewrite those," and channeling these more positive stories, instead. You're blowing my mind because these things that I employ on a very regular basis in my life in terms of what I'm up to, I'm now seeing really have a lot of space and power to think about things on a much bigger level, and that just feels very doable. You know?
Saraya Boghani: You're already doing the work. Then you said like, well, we were talking about white supremacy as being mundane, but the work you're doing mundane and diurnal, what you're doing every day and then can be applied to the bigger picture with an army of folks who are engaging in that. And that's how the Western supremacy ends, right?
Sonalee Rashatwar: Yeah. That's how we make this shit accessible, is we remind folks they're already doing that work already. That's what I love about offering these tangible skills as takeaways is that when we politicize them, we're able to see how they work in upending white supremacy. We're able to see how actually, "Oh yeah, if I think about the process of decolonization", which today we were talking about it metaphorically, how we're plucking ideas if it was a feather in our skull, within our brain, and plucking out the feather and saying, "is this feather useful to me?" And scrutinizing it, and looking at it critically and remembering that from our, like, sociology one-on-one classes: everything is socially constructed. If that value or belief is no longer working for me, then like fuck that belief and value. The greatest thing about social construction theory--I mean, I don't often use the word theory to describe these things--but like, that is, it's theory. It's an understanding that if that shit is not working for you, we can pluck it out; we can decolonize our minds and we can replant a totally different thought or belief or idea that includes us in it. That includes us within our radical imaginaries to be and have like these fully formed lives that are fulfilling and full of love and pleasure and fatness and abundance and excess and still be okay and worthy bodies.
Saraya Boghani: I really appreciated the workshop with how you scaffold it. By that I mean, you were very transparent with "This is where we're gonna go. These are our agenda points. We're gonna stop here, take some time.” And then the takeaways at the end, which we're touching on right now, were so great. Because it can be overwhelming to be confronted with all these ideas and figure out where I am on this continuous spectrum of understanding my ideologies. But I think one of yours that was really cool was like, "find something that's nourishing". Can you share the language for that takeaway?
Sonalee Rashatwar: So are you thinking about--
Saraya Boghani: Like the fluffy kindness to yourself.
Sonalee Rashatwar: That you, that we deserve pleasure? And that our bodies are inherently worth pleasure? (Saraya and Cat: Yeah.) As a pleasure activist--and a lot of these ideas are coming from the work of Adrienne Marie Brown--who's talking about pleasure activism in a much more mainstream way--but also from this really grassroots disability justice, “every body has inherent worth” way, and also adding fatphobia to that intersection of understanding pleasure is this reminder that like capitalism is often the root of what is telling us that we don't deserve rest and we don't deserve delicious food if we haven't earned it. If we've just been sitting and watching Netflix all day, that we don't deserve like a delicious meal after that, that really cares for us and nourishes us; that we don't deserve fattening high-calorie foods because those are things that we should deny ourselves. We should deny ourselves pleasure, because we want to live the most productive, the most healthy, the longest life possible. But like, at what cost? At what cost to us as individuals?
The fluffy takeaway response that I always want us to remember is that: no matter what trauma we've survived--because all of us have always survived some type of trauma--we should not internalize this message that our bodies are damaged or broken or unwhole or incomplete or part of some, you know, "there's a better half of me out there somewhere." We should remember that our bodies are inherently worthy of pleasure, no matter what's happened, and we deserve more pleasure, even after we've watched Netflix all day. You still deserve to eat cake. That's fine. (Cat: Yes.)
Cat Polivoda: It was a quote that you shared, one of the many multiple quotes you have on your Instagram--which is amazing-- but the idea that like, this idea of body image abuse. The example you gave is this person was in a romantic relationship and, you know, went through a trauma, and then their partner was like, "I notice you haven't been to the gym in a while and wanna let you know, like”--probably not this verbatim--but like, “want to let you know if your body changes, I don't want to be in this relationship."
It reminded me of that This American Life episode life happens and they just re-aired (Sonalee: Oh God...) and how that one person who lost a great deal of weight was talking to her partner about kind of her previous self, and essentially her husband was like, "yeah, I wouldn't be with you if you were fat." Like, HOLY FUCK. Like that's just, that's so much--
Saraya Boghani: --have to be on diet pills, to earn my love, yeah--
Cat Polivoda: Yeah! But this concept of a body image abuse is, am I saying that that's how you framed it, right? -- (Sonalee: Mhmm.) --was just really powerful. Could you talk about that a little bit?
Sonalee Rashatwar: Yeah. I love that fucking episode of This American Life about fat, and the interview of Lindy West. What I love doing in these mainstream conversations of anti-violence, because I've worked in the field of anti-violence for about eight years now, and that's a field that tackles issues like domestic violence, sexual violence, and human trafficking. In these mainstream sexual violence spaces, we're often thinking of abuse from a really hetero lens, like men abuse women, and most women are in hetero relationships. We get stuck thinking of abuse in this really physical way where we only categorize assault as the only type of sexual violence. What I want us to do is expand this understanding of sexual violence because a sexual boundary violation is so much more than a penetrative assault. (Cat: Right.) A sexual boundary violation can also include someone taking off a condom midway through sex and not telling you; that's a boundary violation. What I also wanna add are some of these experiences involving body image abuse that affect the way we experience our bodies.
So when my food consumption was policed as a child, when I was told explicitly that my body had less value as a child, that's a form of sexual violence because when I internalize that, I believe that my body has inherently less value. For me personally, I believe that that influenced my decision to leave an abusive home environment to then become in an abusive relationship. Which didn't last very long, thankfully; it was like a year--I mean, it was pretty long, a year and a half--but what I internalized was this idea that I deserved that mistreatment. I deserve that sexual violence. I deserve this exploitation of my body because my body had less inherent value.It made me more susceptible to also this experience of sexual violence because I understood that, "oh, well, that's the kind of violence I'm seeing at home between my parents, maybe this is normal. Maybe this is the best I'm going to get, because I'm assumed to be less intellectual as a fat person, less desirable as a fat person, less sexually desirable, less like friends, like “I want to be your friend, I want to be around you,” I'm not seen as someone who's desirable within society, so folks want to distance themselves from me.
Saraya Boghani: So in the workshop earlier you were talking about how there is definitely room for more radical and political therapists and practitioners. I was curious, how did you choose social work as a way to engage in this? Yeah, I'll just leave it like that.
Sonalee Rashatwar: Social work for me was this opportunity to become a professional activist. I was first exposed to the idea of social work--because I had no idea what it was, before I had even considered social work school and going for graduate school to study social work--I had never considered it until I had met this friend of mine who was in social work school, and she was studying to become a sex therapist. Her name is Chelsea, she lives in Colorado. We're still in touch. What she told me was that social work is actually this like universally applicable degree; when you graduate, you can work in a hospital and be a social worker, you could work for yourself and be a radical educator and be a social worker, I could educate doctors and dentists about whatever nonsense things they're doing (all laugh) and do that as a social worker. I could work in a school system, I could work within government--even though like, you know, fuck the government--and I would be able to have a job and support myself. I could have these really creative opportunities, because I'm never only doing one thing. I've always had multiple jobs. So I want to say at my peak of working too much, I was juggling like four jobs at one time, cause I always do this freelancing stuff on the side--and that's not even including the social media upkeep because maintaining a social media platform is like huge fucking work. (Cat and Saraya: Yuuup.)
I'm like too embarrassed to tell you--okay, now I'm going to tell you, cause it's a fucking podcast. It's super embarrassing, but my screen time is measured on my iPhone. We can all see it and I really appreciate it because it helps me to remember to detach, and to monitor when it is that I'm really on for a long time and ask myself, "Why is that?"
I find that I am craving connection and social connection, but I'm staying in this physically isolated space that's often my own internalized fatphobia because I'm not wanting to get in my car and like go out and drive and get that takeout. Instead I'm like, sitting at home and ordering delivery, or not asking my friends, "Hey, who's up on a Thursday night? Anyone want to hang out and grab a beer?" Instead of reaching out for those like social connections, I'm scrolling on Instagram and also not meeting that need that's actually still there. So at my worst, I am on social media like eight hours in a day. (Cat: Like it's your job.) Like it's a fucking job. (Saraya: Full night's sleep, right there.) Six to eight hours is a really heavy social media day for me, but it's also those days that I'm curating content or I'm writing a post--cause that takes like an hour sometimes, to really think about the verbiage that I want to use or to put in the citations that I want to show, so that folks have additional reading material.
Upkeeping a big platform is a lot of unpaid labor, but what I love about it is that it's also my marketing tool. So professionally, folks who approach me and want to work with me and become a client often have access to my ideas and my theory or my practice knowledge before they even approach me as a client. They're like, "Oh, I've read a lot of your posts, or I've seen your repost on Instagram, and it's helped me to understand that I would like to hire you as my mental health professional," which is wonderful--that's a lot of work. So professionally, I chose to be a social worker because I got to have this universally applicable job. But also social workers--before I had gone to social work school, I got to read the social work code of ethics and it's universally applicable shit. If any of us were to read it, we'd be like, "Oh yeah, I'm down with that. I'm down for understanding that systems of oppression can--need to be abolished and need to be eradicated in order for us to experience good things in life," and that's built into the social work code of ethics.
That is not to say that all social workers are anti-racist and critical of white supremacy, or working on unlearning fatphobia. The vast majority of social workers, based on my anecdotal experience of surviving graduate school with other problematic social workers, is that they're actually super invested in maintaining the current hierarchies and hegemonies and aren't actually invested in what I imagine is this truly intersectional understanding of how we abolish all of our oppressions by considering all of our liberation as being linked.
So, me ending my fatphobia is linked with someone else's ending of their anti-blackness because together we would be tearing down white supremacy. (Cat: Oooh.) Our liberation is connected just like our oppression is connected.
Cat Polivoda: Yeah. That's something I've thought about before, but how you just phrased that, these are all--yeah, just like knowing that white supremacy is the enemy, and we're taught to divide and conquer, but if we resist that, then like, "what can be torn down?"
Sonalee Rashatwar: If we work together, right. We have to.
Saraya Boghani: Yeah. That relationship piece, the relation of it, and meeting each other where we're at to figure out how we work together, to peel that back.
Sonalee Rashatwar: Social work school was impossible to survive, though. It was really difficult.
Saraya Boghani: That's what I wanted to ask too, because to be a social worker, the licensure that goes into it, the money that goes into--there's a lot of inaccessibility for the people who are maybe already doing that work without the-- (Cat: The title.) the title, but also the foundational information to help them be more efficient and more effective too. So what was that like, going through that system?
Sonalee Rashatwar: Literally horrifying. I dropped out--I almost dropped out so many times. And that's not just because women of color have such a high dropout rate from graduate programs and doctoral programs. That's also the case. But I was remembering that institutions, academic institutions especially, replicate these systems of violence and these systems of domination. They do not challenge it, because schools are businesses. They make money off of students failing courses, and they are not interested in ending those experiences.
Surviving social work school was so fucking traumatic, because I started graduate school in like 2013. If you want to imagine what was happening back then: the rise of Black Lives Matter, 2014--the assassination of Trayvon Martin and the acquittal of George Zimmerman was also that summer of 2013. 2014 was the Ferguson uprising and the militarization that we were seeing in Ferguson, Missouri. These were conversations that were not translating into my social work classrooms, but as a grassroots organizer, I was deeply invested in these conversations because that's the shit that I give a shit about.
So me, as someone who's this eldest child, who's always the self-interested natural leader, I'm like, "I don't give a fuck what we're reading about right now, Professor Whatever. We're gonna talk about what I give a shit about, and I'm gonna find a way to make this lesson plan applicable to what I want to talk about." But what I was experiencing in my classrooms was so much pushback, because a lot of my white classmates were like, "Um, you're racist for talking about race." And I was like, "Hmm."
Cat Polivoda: (incredulous) In a social work classroom?! Like, come the fuck on!
Sonalee Rashatwar: Or that I was racist for telling people that when we are talking about--like if I were to tell you, "Imagine an actress," right, and I didn't tell you the person's race. What is the race of the actress that you imagined?
Cat Polivoda: I imagined Julia Roberts.
Sonalee Rashatwar: White.
Saraya Boghani: Mhmm, Charlize Theron, white.
Sonalee Rashatwar: White. So there's this colonization of our imaginary where even when we
imagine what an ideal actress would look like, we're imagining a white person. So When I had said this in a classroom, they were like, "Oh, how dare you assume that I have a white supremacist imaginary?" And I'm like, "Yo, I have it too." Like, we all are struggling with it.
Cat Polivoda: We're all here! (laughs)
Saraya Boghani: We're on the same page.
Sonalee Rashatwar: I'm not trying to position myself as someone who's condescending, or knows more than you or is more, is more "unlearn"-ed, I've like unlearned some of this stuff more than you. It's not a woke competition, but there was divisiveness just to naming race. It's actually really beautiful to enter education spaces now in 2019 and people want to talk about shit like this now, that I've been like, "Wow! Finally, it's the time! I've been waiting so long!" Just so glad that people are ready for the conversation now.
It was fucking difficult. So whenever I have folks of color, especially, come and talk to me and say,"I want to do the work that you're doing. I want to go to grad school. I want to get my MSW," I'm like, you need to buckle up. You need to get a community of people--
Saraya Boghani: Support network, yup, that's so key--
Sonalee Rashatwar: --because it is tough to survive on your own. I remember the type of bullying that I was receiving was not just from my professors, it was also from my classmates. For example: in social work school, there was one South Asian person who was also there, and she was an admin and she was in their graduate program--in the doctoral program, and I was in the master's program in social work. The academics who were running the social work program explicitly told her that she was not allowed to talk to me because I was a rabble rouser. They knew that I was going to be like, "Oh my gosh, what are your fucking shitty racist experiences at this university? Because I'm having a lot too." And guess what fucking happened? We became besties and we opened up our own social work practice. (Cat and Saraya laugh and cheer) And the rest is history! We became rad social workers together and teamed up and opened up Radical Therapy Center in Philadelphia.
Cat Polivoda: I just want to reference something that you did in telling that story that you did a lot during your talk, which was to explain, like, "Hey, I'm still unlearning this stuff too." We all are, like of course. But that acknowledgement and kind of in, in several ways, like throughout your talk and then kind of giving examples with it, it's just something that makes this all so much more accessible to people. I know you know that, but I just want to honor that. Like, that's--
Saraya Boghani: It's a skill, it's such a skill.
Sonalee Rashatwar: I love when I meet somebody and they're like, "Oh, but you don't struggle with that at all." And I'm like, "Are you kidding?" I definitely still scroll through my selfies, and I'm like, "Hmm, I don't--my double chin looks really cute in that one, and less cute in this one. It looks like, too fat in a bad way in this one." I still do that shit. I still catch myself all the time.
Cat Polivoda: So you talked a little bit about this idea of not merely tolerating or accepting our fatness, but honoring it and celebrating it. The way you phrased it was so beautiful, and I'd love for you to share that again.
Sonalee Rashatwar: Whenever I'm working with clients who are working through their internalized fatphobia, I try to find ways that we can find gratitude in the fatness, because it's difficult to hate something that you have gratitude for. Maybe our fatness could have good reasons for existing. I use the lens of colonization and white supremacy to put into context why my fatness might have value. Not that it might just have value aesthetically as well--because also, like, we're fucking hot--but also that when I think about my ancestral lineages, and when I put my--when I think about my body as an heirloom, something that I've inherited, and when I look at my body in the context of my family unit, I can see that my whole family is fat. I see that I belong. Like, my fatness belongs within this context.
That's not to say if we're the only fat one out of our thin family that we don't belong. But I want us to imagine, if we were to think back, based on wherever we're from in the world ‘cause--especially for folks who are settlers here in the U.S., like, I'm not indigenous to this land. My family has ancestry from somewhere else in the world, and so our bodies are meant to look like different sizes because our bodies are meant to survive different things from elsewhere in the world, right? There's a reason why Nordic folks look like giants. (Cat and Saraya laugh) They're built to withstand the cold and darkness for six months of the year. When I think about my body as an heirloom, something that I've inherited, I think about how I would never criticize an antique that I would receive as an heirloom and every flaw and dent is something that is supposed to be there.
There's value and beauty in this thing that has survived and there's resilience in this object that
has survived, right? There's strategy there. I think about my body-as-heirloom when I think about my ancestral lineage. Specifically my family comes from India, from South Asia, and the people who had to survive in order to have me exist today in 2019 had to survive British colonization. They had to survive famine, they had to survive partition. So I imagine--and both of my parents survived food scarcity--so I have to imagine that my body might be fat for the reason that I could possibly withstand genocide, should it happen for a second time. My body could survive famine if we were to experience that again. To find gratitude in the body, to better understand it as something that is not a problem to be fixed or not a disease to be cured, but that's something that deserves to exist because of body diversity is actually super important.
We don't talk about--we talk about biodiversity with animals and we say like, "No animal should go extinct, not even the gross, icky, insect ones," right? We have to think of ourselves like that, too.
Cat Polivoda: Yeah.
Saraya Boghani: Thanks for sharing that.
Cat Polivoda: Oh, and just phrasing it so beautifully, too. Thanks for telling your story--
Cat and Saraya: --As a matter of fat!
[TRANSITION MUSIC]
Cat Polivoda: Ooo, that was such a great conversation with Sonalee! See, aren't they amazing?
Saraya Boghani: I'm so glad we were able to share their words and wisdom and vulnerability with you all. We checked in with Sonalee, and they gave us some updates.
Cat Polivoda: They're creating a QTPOC fat plus virtual group that just began. The first cohort, they said, was 12 people from occupied Turtle Island/North America.
Saraya Boghani: We will link all of the things, so go check out all the great work that Sonalee is doing. Now feels like a good time for--
Cat and Saraya: Dirt and Discourse!
[TRANSITION MUSIC]
Cat Polivoda: It's time for the Dirt and Discourse. This is where we dive into the excitement and discomfort around relevant pop and cultural happenings.
Recently, during the Twin Cities Film Festival, I saw a movie that I really wanted to talk about during Dirt and Discourse because there's a lot to discuss.
Saraya Boghani: A Perfect 14 is described as exploring the world of plus size models fighting to reshape the fashion industry and the beauty standards of society. We were actually invited to see it and watched the trailer together, and were really not sure about what the message would actually be. I was really hesitant to endorse something before knowing a little bit more about it.
Cat Polivoda: Same, and that's why I'm glad I saw it. Overall, I'd say the film came across as quite body positive, but not fat positive.
Saraya Boghani: Exactly. So Cat did the heavy lifting here; lay it out for us, chica. What did the film cover?
Cat Polivoda: It basically was describing the state of plus-size modeling, like the plus-size modeling industry, as of about 2014-2015. It shared a variety of people and perspectives through lots of interviews, and it focused on three models closely throughout the film, telling their story.
Saraya Boghani: I did a little research on the director and writer, Giovanna Morales Vargas. In an interview, she said that the idea actually stemmed from working with one of the featured models in Vancouver, which is Ellie Mayday. And how inspidered-- (pause, then both laugh)
Cat Polivoda: I love it!
Saraya Boghani: She was inspidered, yeah. She was not inspidered, she was inspired by the way she was determined to be a curvy-bodied person--and here I'm quoting--that, quote-unquote, "looked like a model." So Giovanna started looking into plus-size models and really thought there was a story to be told. So she brought it to our producer and editor, James Earl O'Brien. They knew each other from film school and they looked around and they were like, "This story has not been told yet, there's no ground covered with this, so let's go forward. Let's make this happen."
Cat Polivoda: I think it was a really interesting and attention-grabbing film. It did a really good job of laying out the often-misguided perspectives that the fashion industry and media--particularly print magazines--have about plus-size models and consumers. 'Cause, ok, they had several interviews with editors from widely-known fashion magazines where they're spelling all the details out in troublesome detail. (Saraya: Yikes.) There were also some places where I was pleasantly surprised. ‘Cause you know, I assume the worst, but I was wrong!
When I saw the trailer, I was worried that this film was going to be some kind of Ashley-Graham-glorifying movie without proper critique or nuance. I was pleasantly surprised and relieved that there was a bit that actually explicitly referenced her and her position on the word "plus-size", and her desire to distance herself from the plus-size community after rising to fame on the dollars made from advertising to all the fat people and all the plus-size retailers--so, you know, this is a bit of a thing for me--but I was happy to see that that was a large part of the conversation related to like the term plus-size. There was a moment, when someone was interviewed about her in particular, or it felt like it was her perspective without naming her, and it was verbatim exactly what I would say. And I was like, "Okay, glad you put that, you know--"
Saraya Boghani: Pulled me back in, yeah, and we know that Ashley Graham is like the best litmus test for you particularly, Cat. Obviously I know your feelings about her, but to bring it back to Lindy West, who we talked about earlier, in her new book at one point she says that--well, a lot of people talk about Ashley's fat zig-zagging, right? (Cat: Yeah.) She mentioned something-- I'm paraphrasing here--like, seeing Ashley Graham on the cover of Sports Illustrated is not doing anything for fat people. It's not doing anything for the 36-size person who needs an outfit to go to a wedding or to a job interview or anything like that. I think that was the kind of concern I had for this movie; how is it going to approach the fashion industry and does it even go beyond the confines of fashion to the everyday person?
Cat Polivoda: Yeah, right. So, ok, there were some really good parts of the film and some of those things were addressed to be sure. But there were some big yikes for me that I think are worthy of some discourse. (Saraya imitates superhero fanfare) In order: one, it highlighted white women's voices over women of color. Two, it made inappropriate comparisons to racial segregation. Three, it didn't properly interrogate the way these models are still upholding traditional beauty standards around size and, related to this, made some unnecessary references to weight.
Saraya Boghani: Whew. That's a lot to cover...you already numbered it, so I mean, honestly, let's kick it off with number one.
Cat Polivoda: Ok! So there were many voices represented through the film. It focused on three stories of plus-size models, and they were Ellie Mayday, like you mentioned from Canada; Laura Wells from Australia; and Kerosene Deluxe from the Netherlands. Each of them had very different experiences within the modeling industry, so there was diversity in those experiences, but they were all small-fat, white-presenting women. I wish that they would have included more models of color in these main storylines rather than just in quick interview snippets, because those felt, in some ways, like an afterthought.
The story was also very centered on Ellie, beginning with her modeling career and then battling cancer. She died earlier this year and the movie was intended in some ways to be a tribute to her. I also learned in the Q and A after the film, what you talked about Saraya: the director was friends with her and that informed why she was such a big part of this. That really put that focus in perspective. While I liked the parts that included Ellie, I wish that her storyline had been a little bit shorter in the larger context of the film. Like, it was so interesting to me, but we had a whole lot to cover and I felt like it just focused on that quite a bit. (Saraya: Sure.)
So in addition to the three main models that were interviewed, there were several shorter interviews from many plus-size models and fashion influencers as well as body positive advocates, but most of these interviews seem pretty dated. I think what must've happened--or maybe that happens with a lot of independent films, you know, they capture footage and then it gets released a lot later.
Saraya Boghani: Funny you should say that. I was doing a little bit of research and I saw that there was a release from womeninhollywood.com referencing the production of A Perfect 14 back in 2015 with the intended release of 2016. I imagine it's really costly to self produce and get this out and about, but this also fits perfectly with what you were experiencing.
Cat Polivoda: Yeah, that information makes perfect sense. While I was sitting here watching and I was feeling like, "Wow, this is really situated in that kind of time, like 2015-2016, right when Lane Bryant released their “I Am No Angel campaign”. Like I felt like I was there, and all of the info felt very accurate to that moment, but maybe not so accurate overall, you know? (Saraya: Sure)
So in addition to the interviews, they pulled more "current time" things in; they showed a lot of ads and photos highlighting plus-size models. Our fave Lizzo was even shown in one of her Swimsuits for All campaigns. I got the impression that they were added later, maybe to help things seem more relevant. Pia Schiavo-Campo, who you might know as "The Mixed Fat Chick"-- or excuse me, just hashtag--no, not hashtag, "at" sign--
Saraya Boghani: You love your hashtags from before, they had to come back in.
Cat Polivoda: So her handle is @mixedfatchick on Insta and on Facebook--I follow her there too--she was interviewed very briefly. Too briefly. (Saraya laughs) She had one of the best quotes in the film, and I wish I had it verbatim, but she was talking about how companies might be embracing plus-sizes or talking about body positivity, but that we need to remember that they are not the ones who started this. She says, "We started this! Fat women on the internet started this revolution."
Saraya Boghani: Yes, yes, yes. Okay. So we covered that, let's get into the second point: inappropriate comparisons to racial segregation. This scares me.
Cat Polivoda: Um, yeah. Okay. So in two instances, the film tried to make comparisons between size and race. While I agree that looking at oppression through a lens with which you might be familiar can be a tool for understanding other forms of oppression. I think it's important to stay away from direct comparisons. I also do not think that the way plus-size models and plus-size shoppers are treated can be compared to racial segregation in the United States. It's just not fair or appropriate, in my opinion, to liken the stigma that plus-size models have faced in their field to having to drink out of a separate water fountain. (Saraya: Yeah.) Like yeah, okay, I might have to go to the back of a store to find the plus-size section, or might not even be able to find anything in my size at all in some stores, but that is so far from the marginalization and violence black people have experienced in this country during segregation and still in many ways today. I just think it was such an irresponsible comparison to make.
Saraya Boghani: Mhmm. That's also a really interesting way to frame that understanding because it sounds like not one person that was part of this production was from the U.S. (Cat: Oh yeah!) So I wonder if that's why it felt like such a misstep as well, trying to forge a metaphor without that clear perspective on what doing so means and not being a person of color, a Black person, African-American person from that U.S. perspective too, just feels like woof--you gotta swerve on that. Like, you can't put that into it.
Cat Polivoda: Right. And if memory serves, this quote--like it started from a quote that was mentioned by someone who is probably from the U.S., probably a person of color, based on how they presented--but they really leaned into it in the production, and I thought that that was not smart. What I think they were trying to do is something that I came to understand more throughout the film, which is that plus-size models really have a tough go of it in the industry in a lot of ways. I just think you cannot make a direct comparison to racial segregation.
Saraya Boghani: Hear hear, hear hear. Okay babe, want you to bring it home. What are the final thoughts on the film?
Cat Polivoda: Okay, so in some ways I felt like the title A Perfect 14 was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but I'm not sure if that really landed. Toward the end, there's a scene where Ellie's being measured at a modeling agency, and she explains that she's more of like a size 10 or 12 after recovering from surgery--cause you know, there's a lot of talk about her illness, battling cancer. She mentions that she's like a 10-12 and she's met by a response saying that she's a "perfect 14", and I think that helped inform the title. What's not shared explicitly here or when we hear from the Australian model is that when we're talking about a UK size 14, it's a U.S. size 10. I saw this film in the U.S., there are lots of U.S. fashion folks in the film, I just wonder if the average U.S. viewer would really get that nuance.
It should also be noted that they gave unnecessary time and detail to Ellie's weight loss due to her illness. I mean, it totally makes sense that it would be addressed, but there’s no need for us to see her on the scale, to hear her previous weight and current weight--like, the numbers--or to see what were essentially before-and-after photos.
Saraya Boghani: Hm. Interesting. Okay, so after listening to all this, my takeaway thought is that, especially since I'm enmeshed in the research process of my program, I can't help but think of this as like what so much of research is: building precedent. So, the story hadn't been covered. There's no documentary like this out there already, and it seems like this documentary allows for so much more to be done. It's demonstrating the gaps in culture and areas for future exploration and continued storytelling just based on everything that you shared right there.
Cat Polivoda: Yeah, I hear that. I think that's a great way to frame it. And you know, I am happy this movie was made. I think they missed a lot, but also, how can you cover everything when there's so much to share?
Saraya Boghani: Mhmm. And that's the Dirt and Discourse.
[TRANSITION MUSIC]
Saraya Boghani: Thank you for listening to our penultimate episode of Season two.
Cat Polivoda: That's right! The next episode is our last of the season!
Saraya Boghani: Big thanks to our sponsor, Superfit Hero. Remember, you can use code "FAT" to save 15% on your own Superfits at www.superfithero.com.
Cat Polivoda: Don't forget: our season two finale celebration is December 1st at La Doña from 3 to 6PM. We would love to see you there!
Saraya Boghani: Please subscribe, rate, and review our podcast wherever you listen.
Cat Polivoda: You can catch us soon for our season finale of--
Cat and Saraya: Matter of Fat!
[OUTRO MUSIC] (Cat: Ok, we gotta edit out my heavy breathing.) (Saraya: No, we aren’t, unless we can take out mine.) (Cat starts a coughing fit) (Saraya: She’s faking, everyone, she’s faking…)